No such thing as a timing play?

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

The only place I heard "continuation play" was in basketball.

bob

I never heard the term until this thread, which is why I asked this board. I'm glad I asked. I wish I had known it is a basketball term (cant stand basketball, so I would never have heard of it) at the time of the convo with the coach. I woulda had a good laugh.

[greymule]

What's faster than immediately?

How about instantaneously?

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by SAump

OBR 7.10: Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

Well, if it doesn't; how about 2006 BRD#3, Pg 9-10 Appeals: Advantages Out at First: Live Action
FED, NCAA and OBR Point not covered. FED Official Interp. 2-3: Hopkins. NCAA Official Interp. 3-3: Fetchiet. OBR Official Interp. 4-3: Fitzpatrick. Advantageous 4th Out.

Actually, when I wrote "apparent 4th out" originally. I was referring to appeal plays. I should have written: "Aside from the 'apparent 4th out' on an appeal play, when would that actually happen?" (Aside from a team trying to get over?) My bad for not being more clear.

Greymule's posting said "However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run." That is NOT an appeal play, so your quote of OBR 7.10 - and all the other manual pages - is irrelevant. He's saying in his "however" - unless I misunderstand, and he wants to clarify - that the defense made the equivalent of a 5-3 play for this 4th out.

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by greymule

What's faster than immediately?

How about instantaneously?

Good one. I'll buy it.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

Well, if a protest committee buys into the BRD or J/R, you might not be laughing last.

From J/R Chapter 10:
" ...3----Not an appeal: Bases loaded, two outs. The batter singles and R2 is thrown out at home for the third out. The batter has been injured and is unable to advance to first, prompting the defense to throw to first against him: this is a advantageous fourth out and supercedes the former third out, and no run can score."

The BRD (2004 ed., article 3) quotes Hopkins (FED), Fetchiet (NCAA), and Fitzpatrick (OBR, or PBUC probably) as all giving the same interpretation as J/R. Childress also comments "Color me not only italized but surprised. I mean, astonished."

For what it is worth (very little), I'm not astonished. Nothing about 7.10(d) says the 4th out is peculiar to appeal plays. Advantageous outs are only mentioned in the context of appeal plays, but that's the only time they are likely to occur.

[greymule]

Greymule's posting said "However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run." That is NOT an appeal play, so your quote of OBR 7.10 - and all the other manual pages - is irrelevant. He's saying in his "however" - unless I misunderstand, and he wants to clarify - that the defense made the equivalent of a 5-3 play for this 4th out.

That's right. The defense made a 5-3 play for the 4th out. I agree that this would not be an appeal. It's just a 5-3 out. However, I think there was once (quite a while back by now) a question about this, and it merited an "approved ruling" or something.

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. If the defense threw to 1B in time and got a fourth out before the BR arrived, no runs could score on the play. Since I had injected softball earlier, I will say that in ASA softball, the defense cannot get this out at 1B if there are already 3 outs.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Actually, when I wrote "apparent 4th out" originally. I was referring to appeal plays. I should have written: "Aside from the 'apparent 4th out' on an appeal play, when would that actually happen?" (Aside from a team trying to get over?) My bad for not being more clear.

Greymule's posting said "However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run." That is NOT an appeal play, so your quote of OBR 7.10 - and all the other manual pages - is irrelevant. He's saying in his "however" - unless I misunderstand, and he wants to clarify - that the defense made the equivalent of a 5-3 play for this 4th out.

Please tell me that teams, noticing a BR has stopped running to 1st in this sitch, throw to F3 to claim an appeal of a "missed base," or try to say the last out is a force, and thus the run doesn't count.

Sorry, but if a team does that with me, when I'm done chuckling, I send them on their way to bat. Again, if someone wants to quote a rule for me, I'm game to listen.

Exceptions: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows.
a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or
b. by another runner being forced out; or
c. by a proceeding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon after a caught fly ball; or
d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman. ...

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SAump

Exceptions: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows.
a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or
b. by another runner being forced out; or
c. by a proceeding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases or left a base too soon after a caught fly ball; or
d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman. ...

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I don't know about others might handle it, but depending on how he came running out of the dugout he just might find himself on the way to the parking lot. I'm not fond of coaches who run at me to argue a call.


Tim.

Even if they stay outside the baselines? What difference does it make if they run, walk or roll as long as they stay outside the lines?

I find coaches who run to the lines funny, like a carnival show, always brings a smile to my face.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Even if they stay outside the baselines? What difference does it make if they run, walk or roll as long as they stay outside the lines?

I find coaches who run to the lines funny, like a carnival show, always brings a smile to my face.

Fitty, you allow coaches to run out of the dugout in your games? What does staying outside the lines have to do with it?

My training and experience, while probably not as extensive or adequate as yours, has taught me that without the benefit of asking for time and having it granted, a coach who runs out onto the field to argue is at risk for an early exit.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Even if they stay outside the baselines? What difference does it make if they run, walk or roll as long as they stay outside the lines?

I find coaches who run to the lines funny, like a carnival show, always brings a smile to my face.

WTF do the baselines have to do with it? There's nothing that says "arguing in foul territory is allowed but arguing in fair territory isn't"

Running at the umpire is often interpreted as "showing up the umpire" (if not all by itself, then in conjunction with other acts). A manager who runs / charges at the umpire is going to have a shorter leash than one who walks out to discuss the play.

[UMP 64]

You said that you primarly do FP, so you were out of your comfort zone. I guess you were needed or a regular baseball ump would be doing the game. The important thing is that you "learned" something that you will never forget. There are some STUPID coaches out there! And there is a timing play in SB. You mentioned that you were mostly a SB ump, and you did not mention you had problems with the baseball strike zone. If your only mistake was the timing play thing, you did well.
Experience is a great teacher.

[greymule]

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

No run.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by greymule

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.
With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.
No run.

Choices: Appeal vs Time Play

Touching the plate after the 3rd out was made by the defense may be too late.
If the umpire considers this as a possible timing play, the run would not score by rule.

Crossing the plate, before the 3rd out was made, may have removed the timing play.
If umpire considers "last-time-by," does R2 have to return and touch the plate?
If R2 doesn't return and touch the plate, an umpire may score the run.
After the run scored, retouching the plate only adds a "stomp" of approval.
If R2 returns and touches the plate, an umpire may score the run.
If the umpire considers this as a possible appeal play, the run would score.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by greymule

What would you call in this situation? I know the correct answer.

With two out, R2 scores from second on B1's single, but fails to touch the plate. B1 becomes the third out when he tries to go to second. Right after the out, R2 returns and touches the plate.

No run.

Grey,

Unless the defense lodges a proper appeal on R2 missing the plate he's assumed to have scored. So, no appeal in the play as you've presented it, run scores on the timing play.


Tim.