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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 12:23am
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No such thing as a timing play?

Amer Legion - OBR

Runners at [email protected] & [email protected] 2 outs.

Ball hit to F5. R2 has passed F6 on the way to 3B, for whatever reason, F5 chases R2 who turns around heading back to 2B. By the time the tag is made, BR is at first and R1 has scored.

I score the run & out 3.

Coach has a mild myocardial infarction, I tell him its a timing play, BR reached 1st safely and R1 made it home.

Coach tells me there is no such thing as a timing play, thats softball (he knows I am primarily a FP umpire), that its a continuation play, the run should not score.

Well, I was confused so I just ended the convo ruling stood, end of story. Nearly had to eject the score keeper who was whining as well that it was a "continuation play"..

So I come to the experts.. what say you?
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 12:44am
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You're taking money to work this level of baseball, and you don't know this basic rule? I'm not usually like some of leatherheads that roam this board, but if you're taking cash to work Legion games, you've got to know this.

I teach 12 year old LL umpires to know this in their first month of training. They'll tap their wrist when timing plays are possible. Congratulations for failing my class.

Excuse me while I eject myself for being rude.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 12:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Coach tells me there is no such thing as a timing play, thats softball (he knows I am primarily a FP umpire), that its a continuation play, the run should not score.
I say tack this onto your "stupid crap I've heard coaches say" board.

Right next to the time a coach told me "once a ball is foul, it's foul" when a bunt down the line crossed the foul line, hit the edge of the grass, and rolled back fair before touched by F1. Oddly enough, this was a Legion coach too. Maybe it's something in the water?
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonInKansas
I say tack this onto your "stupid crap I've heard coaches say" board.

Right next to the time a coach told me "once a ball is foul, it's foul" when a bunt down the line crossed the foul line, hit the edge of the grass, and rolled back fair before touched by F1. Oddly enough, this was a Legion coach too. Maybe it's something in the water?
I had no clue what he was talking about, I just refused to engage in the convo when he said it.. I just wanted to be sure.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Amer Legion - OBR

Runners at [email protected] & [email protected] 2 outs.

Ball hit to F5. R2 has passed F6 on the way to 3B, for whatever reason, F5 chases R2 who turns around heading back to 2B. By the time the tag is made, BR is at first and R1 has scored.

I score the run & out 3.

Coach has a mild myocardial infarction, I tell him its a timing play, BR reached 1st safely and R1 made it home.

Coach tells me there is no such thing as a timing play, thats softball (he knows I am primarily a FP umpire), that its a continuation play, the run should not score.

Well, I was confused so I just ended the convo ruling stood, end of story. Nearly had to eject the score keeper who was whining as well that it was a "continuation play"..

So I come to the experts.. what say you?
First, everyone gets rattled and confused from time to time. This was your real problem. How do you handle things when you get pressed and the mind takes an intermittent bleeep? You had the call right, you didn't give yourself time, and the coach a show of "respect" (yeah, he didn't deserve it but read on).

I am fortunate to work with partners who, in many ways, are better than I am . So I have a place to go to sort things out. If you don't this will work for you too.

When Coach comes out on you, and you feel yourself searching for the right response but can't find it,

"Coach, hold on just a minute."

Go over to your partner, if he is good, then talk it through, if not, then tell him "I'm coming over here to get a mental recharge, we had R2, R3, etc etc"...the rule will come back to you given a breather to think without being pressed.

Return to Coach (who by the very act of taking time to discuss his viewpoint shows "respect" for his (lousy) opinion.. that's what it will look like), "Coach, it's a timing play, I'm sure of it. Play and scoring stands."
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Last edited by fitump56; Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 01:08am.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:04am
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An answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
well, when I need advice on lame mechanics taught to LL umpires, I know who to look up. Hopefully one of the OBR experts knows the answer to my question though.

Oh and "this level of ball" is not that impressive... as evidenced by the play. I was just happy they made a 3rd out finally.
Even Little League umpires can read OBR Rules:
Quote:
4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilLeaguer
Even Little League umpires can read OBR Rules:
That wasnt my question, my question was the term "continuation play" vs "timing play not existing in OBR" comment made by an long time 18U American Legion coach and a scorekeeper.

You little leaguers are going off in the wrong area. I thought perhaps the term was different or some other aspect of which I was not aware. I scored the run based on exactly what you quoted... which btw, does not include the term "timing play"

essentially checking nomenclature or perhaps a rule involving a "continuation play" of which I was not aware.

Question has been answers though, and thanks to those who did.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
That wasnt my question, my question was the term "continuation play" vs "timing play not existing in OBR" comment made by an long time 18U American Legion coach and a scorekeeper.

You little leaguers are going off in the wrong area. I thought perhaps the term was different or some other aspect of which I was not aware. I scored the run based on exactly what you quoted... which btw, does not include the term "timing play"

essentially checking nomenclature or perhaps a rule involving a "continuation play" of which I was not aware.

Question has been answers though, and thanks to those who did.
Uh huh ... "Timing play" is the ONLY correct answer. Please advise just where the term "Continuation play" appears in the OBR rules relating to scoring.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 03:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
well, when I need advice on lame mechanics taught to LL umpires, I know who to look up. Hopefully one of the OBR experts knows the answer to my question though.

Tapping your wrist with two outs and a runner in scoring position is used in all levels of amature baseball to communicate to your partner you have a potential "timing play". It's not a mechanic you should so easily dismiss as one used only by "LL" umpires.


Tim.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 09:31am
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Little league uses rules based on OBR. The timing play is the same regardless of rule set. The use of the "time play" signal is almost universal, and I don't find it lame in the least.

However, more important than understanding the signal, is an understanding of the rule. As far as the coach and his 'continuation' play, I would have just told him there is no such thing. How long would you debate with a coach who insists that the 'hands are part of the bat '?
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 10:08am
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Cool

Wadeintothem,

While interpretations manuals (notably J/R) use terms like the "continuous action of the play", primarily in dealing with the proper constition of an appeal, none of them introduces any notion that would suggest a run that scores after the 3rd out of the half-inning would be counted - because, by rule, it doesn't.

A "continuation play" is the ridiculous notion introduced in the NBA that allows a player to score a basket even though he was fouled well before he began to initiate a scoring attempt.

Your ruling was correct.

JM
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 10:11am
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A continuation play is when a basketball player gets fouled in the act shooting.

My point is that if you're getting paid to do upper level ball, you've GOT to know this. There can't even be a question in your mind.

Last edited by kylejt; Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 12:36pm.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 12:27pm
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It appeared to me that HE DID Know it, but wanted clarification, because a coach did a fantastic job talking out of his ***. We have all seen it, simply relax man.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 01:05pm
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Another sad example

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Amer Legion - OBR
Runners at [email protected] & [email protected] 2 outs.
Ball hit to F5. R2 has passed F6 on the way to 3B, for whatever reason, F5 chases R2 who turns around heading back to 2B. By the time the tag is made, BR is at first and R1 has scored. I score the run & out 3.
Coach has a mild myocardial infarction, I tell him its a timing play, BR reached 1st safely and R1 made it home. Coach tells me there is no such thing as a timing play, thats softball (he knows I am primarily a FP umpire), that its a continuation play, the run should not score.
Well, I was confused so I just ended the convo ruling stood, end of story. Nearly had to eject the score keeper who was whining as well that it was a "continuation play"..
So I come to the experts.. what say you?
You made the right call. Dumb rats make your job more difficult. You should have dumped these 2 immediately for disputing the call. Some umpires may wait 2 years to do this. That isn't right either, but it is part of a continuation play.

Last edited by SAump; Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 01:13pm.
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Old Sat Jul 14, 2007, 03:23pm
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Since the coach invoked softball, I'll extend the OP a bit and give an example of a difference between OBR and ASA softball.

In the OP, the run scored before the third out, so it counts (time play). However, if after the tag, F5 still had time to get the BR at 1B, he could have done so for a fourth out and nullified the run.

But in ASA softball, he could not. Even if the BR never left the batter's box, he cannot be put out for a fourth out (because he didn't score).
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