Cutoff Question

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by voiceoflg

The coach isn't always right. Can I get an amen?

And going against a coach's wishes is the fastest way to ride the pine. Can I get a witness on that?

[LakeErieUmp]

Hit the cut-off man. Bunt when you get the sign. Steal when you get the sign.

GOSH I love telling coaches how to coach and players how to play! God knows they try to tell us how to umpire often enough!

p.s. - this comes only from D3 experience 32 years ago. But I think the ball's still round, the bases are still square, and the beers after the game are still cold.

[canadaump6]

Mick: You don't mind if I refer to you as the hardcore legend Mick Foley do you? That's a good thing, Mick Foley is the man.

I think in this case it's best to go with what the coach wants, and not complain about where I play as cooperation is a coach's best friend. I still think I made the right decision, but I'll go with what the coach wants, as tough as that may be to do. It actually was neither of the coaches who said anything, but rather the third baseman who would later go to the cutoff position on a throw from the outfield to home plate, thus leaving third base without a third baseman and taking away a possible out when the runner made the turn.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mick

There are three reasons you got put in right field:

1. The opponents have a strong left-handed hitting team.
2. You have a strong arm.
3. Your hitting and fielding skills are unproven.

If it was because of #2, you did fine.

Or:
4. You are the very worst player on the team, and there was no other place to hide you.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Or:
4. You are the very worst player on the team, and there was no other place to hide you.

5. Somebody had to pick last.......

[canadaump6]

I'd assume it is the infielders who will tell each other "go cutoff on this one" or "I'll be the cutoff here". The other infielders just hope and pray that they are in the proper position. I really don't see the need for a cutoff on the first to third play though. The pitcher should cut it if he thinks the throw won't retire the runner, otherwise nothing wrong with a straight up challenge of the runner.

[LakeErieUmp]

Okay Canada, now you're just being silly. The pitcher??? He BETTER be backing up your throw to third!!!

[SAump]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I'd assume it is the infielders who will tell each other "go cutoff on this one" or "I'll be the cutoff here". The other infielders just hope and pray that they are in the proper position. I really don't see the need for a cutoff on the first to third play though. The pitcher should cut it if he thinks the throw won't retire the runner, otherwise nothing wrong with a straight up challenge of the runner.

Canada6, you ottawa not umpire, nor even ottawa play, just ottawa watch it on tv.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

The pitcher should cut it if he thinks the throw won't retire the runner, otherwise nothing wrong with a straight up challenge of the runner.

The two most common cutoff men are F3 and F5, depending on the situation and from where the ball is being fielded. F4 or F6 are normally relay man (not cutoff man) on triple/possible inside-the-park homers. The pitcher should have been backing up either 3rd or home, depending on where the throw was likely to go, in this case 3rd.

It sounds like everything worked out okay with F6 cutting off your throw (unless you are convinced you would have had R1 at third), but he is not the traditional cutoff man on these plays.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

This is a question for all you players and coaches.

I was playing a game a couple days ago in my local adult league. I was in right field. With a runner on first base, a ball was hit through the hole to me. As I charged in to get it, I heard someone yell "go to three", and I knew the runner would be trying to go first to third. I fielded it, and threw it as hard as I could towards third base. It was an okay throw, and the shortstop ended up catching it between second and third base. The runner advanced to third, the batter stayed at first. I thought I did a good job of making a fairly strong, accurate throw.

But then I hear the third baseman say "you've gotta hit the cutoff on that one, we had a play on the guy going to third". Apparently it was my fault that I did not hit the cutoff guy. Funny thing is, the cutoff man was the second baseman, positioned just beyond the infield about 80 feet away from me, and had I pegged one in his direction that he decided to let go through, it would have ended up out of play, between home plate and third base.

Not only was the cutoff man not lined up between me and third base, he was too close to me, and he can't even throw. I take it as an insult that everyone would think that I should make a little-league distance throw to him, so that he can gun it across the infield.

When I got back to the dugout after the inning was over, I asked about what I did wrong. Apparently I am supposed to field the ball, look for the cutoff, and throw it to him, even if he is in a crappy position. I thought that I should just field it and throw it towards the base I am going to, without even worrying about whether the cutoff is there or not, and it is the cutoff's responsibility to be there in the first place. It's not like I have a feeble arm or anything, so I am offended that they would think I would even need a cutoff on a first to third type of play.

Something tells me there is a bit of favouritism on my team, as we have shortstops, first, second and third basemen who either cannot throw, field, or a combination of the two. Yet here I am, solid glove and okay arm, wasting away in right field.

Do you guys think I did the right thing in just throwing to the base and not worrying about whether the cutoff man was there or not, or should I have made a 80 foot throw to the cutoff man who was out of position and couldn't throw to save his life?

He's Baaaaaaaaaaaaack.

[canadaump6]

Mick [Foley], you're a good man. Steve, don't you think that was a little harsh? GarthB, thanks for the introduction. LMan, I do both. Jurassic Referee, how do you respond to me when you have me on your ignore list ? Mcrowder, my question is only 96.5% unrelated to the topic of umpiring.

Sorry about the off-topic post guys but I was really hoping we could get into some discussion about this play.

[mick]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Mick [Foley] ....

Foley ?
That's not me. Yer thinkin' of someone else.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Steve, don't you think that was a little harsh?

No, I was just playin'. I think you are dealing with coaches who don't know the difference between a cut and a relay. What they wanted you to do was hit a relay man (who can't throw), instead of pegging the shortstop (who was acting as cut off man in this case) and holding R1 at third base. If you would have thrown to F4, the 3rd base coach would have probably sent R1 home if he knew of F4's weak arm. It sounds like you did the right thing, but got reamed for it.

Now, no more player questions or rants on the umpire board!

Yeah, like that's gonna stop them.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

SNIPPED
Do you guys think I did the right thing in just throwing to the base and not worrying about whether the cutoff man was there or not, or should I have made a 80 foot throw to the cutoff man who was out of position and couldn't throw to save his life?

I played at the MiLB level 30 years ago. When I was F8 or F9, our rule was to hit the cutoff man and let him make the decision. If for some reason, I felt compelled to make the throw directly to retire the runner, it had better be on the mark and I better nail that runner. Otherwise, it was shower time and a couple of days collecting splinters in my butt!

Do what you are told, just like umpiring!

Finite

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Do you guys think I did the right thing in just throwing to the base and not worrying about whether the cutoff man was there or not, or should I have made a 80 foot throw to the cutoff man who was out of position and couldn't throw to save his life?

Some times arise where you have to ignore what you're told and do what you're certain is a better option. This may have been one of those times - you will have to resolve that yourself.

If the case exists that your ability is not being used, then you have to either (a) suck it up and play (and either voicing your opinion or not voicing your opinion), or (b) leave the team. I've had different sitchs in life where I've done each of the 3.

Good luck.