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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 11:31am
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Went to a Class L Girls Basketball game last night and sat behind the scores table. Class L is the largest division in my state. In the second quarter a foul is called and when the official goes to report the foul he says #5 blue over the back and makes a motion like he is going to climb a ladder with his hands. I thought that there was no such thing as over the back, it would be called a push. Just wondering if someone could explain the ruling to me please.

Thanks
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 11:59am
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CoaachJF

As you have probably noticed... Most of the responses to your "mislabeled thread" were satirical in nature, because we get tired of repeatedly addressing the common myths. Thanks for your sincere interest in learning more (from an official's point of view).

Having said that... There is no such foul as "Over the Back" identified in the rulebook; (Nor is there a "Climbing the ladder" mechanic) however, unfortunately, too many officials continue to propogate the myth by making statements (and gyrations) like the one you listed above and the masses wholeheartedly embrace it. The correct terminology and mechanic is a "Push".

Coach, if you have not already purchased a rulebook, I suggest you get one. It will help you and your players immensely.

Best wishes
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 12:00pm
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That's just a case of an official using non-approved mechanics.
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 01:06pm
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Re: CoaachJF

Quote:
Originally posted by williebfree


Coach, if you have not already purchased a rulebook, I suggest you get one. It will help you and your players immensely.

Best wishes
What good is having a book going to do if the official doesn't know the rule? Here is a convo I had with an official last week. The foul was on my center, call was "over the back"

Me: "What was that foul?"
Ref: "Over the back coach."
Me: "Was there contact?"
Ref: Yes.
Me: "so then it was a push?"
Ref: "No, it was over the back?"
Me: "The contact didn't matter?"
Ref: "No"
Me: "so we got a foul for being taller than the other team?"
Ref: "Coach, you better stop now before you get a T."

What is the point in me knowing the rules if they aren't going to be called correctly and I'm going to get a T for bringing it up?

Personally, it has been my experience that when a coach tries to quote a rule to an official, it pisses them off more than it helps.

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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 01:17pm
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CoaachJF

As williebfree has already said there is no such foul as "Over the Back" identified in the rulebook. When "Over the Back" is called by an official (cringe), what has most likely happened is a violation of
Rule 4-36 ART.2: ...To obtain or maintain legal rebounding position, a player may not
a. Displace, charge or push an opponent.
b. Extend shoulders, hips, knees or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical so the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occurs.
c. Bend his/her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
d. Violate the principle of verticality.


The correct signal for reporting this foul would usually be the “push” signal.

A player may elevate him/herself over an opponent to secure a rebound so long as they do not violate the above rule. Many will want the "over the back" foul called when a player makes an athletic play and does not foul the opponent (displacement is usually the key here) in doing so.
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 01:19pm
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Re: Re: CoaachJF

Quote:
Originally posted by gsf23

What good is having a book going to do if the official doesn't know the rule?
Me: "so we got a foul for being taller than the other team?"
Ref: "Coach, you better stop now before you get a T."
Sounds like a ref that needs to do a little (or a lot of) studying. Hopefully, he/she is not representative of the majority of the officials you get.

Z
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:06pm
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Re: Re: CoaachJF

Quote:
Originally posted by gsf23
What is the point in me knowing the rules if they aren't going to be called correctly and I'm going to get a T for bringing it up?

Personally, it has been my experience that when a coach tries to quote a rule to an official, it pisses them off more than it helps.
Maybe it will at least keep you from getting a T for yelling at an official when he got it right, which (hopefully) is the case more often than when they get it wrong.
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:23pm
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No, it isn't typical of the officials that I get at my games. Most of them have been very good at what they do and very accomodating when I have a question about a call or about a rule.

The point I was trying to make was that why should the coach in this situation get a rulebook? The coach didn't call over the back and didn't ask for over the back, the official did. Why hasn't someone said "that official should get a rule book then." Just seems to me that when a coach comes to this board with a question about a call, whether the call was right or wrong the coach gets told to know the rules. Again, what is the point in knowing the rules if they are going to be called wrong.

If an official makes a call, obviously he thinks that this is the right call or he wouldn't have made it. Now, what are you going to do as an official if a coach questions your application or interpretation of the rule? The coach is probably going to be told he is wrong and if persistant, will get a T. How many officials here would say, "you are right coach, my mistake." And I am talking about rules applications(like bonus free throws being awarded on a player control foul) not judgement calls (like a push or hold).
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:32pm
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gsf23, what level do you coach? FT's awarded for a PC foul?

snaqwells
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by gsf23
Just seems to me that when a coach comes to this board with a question about a call, whether the call was right or wrong the coach gets told to know the rules. Again, what is the point in knowing the rules if they are going to be called wrong.
You're preaching to the choir here, coach. You're not going to find many officials on this forum who will stick up for that ref. He should definitely know better. That goes without saying; which, I guess, is why it went without saying.

Coaches and players, however, often think they already know the rules well enough and it would never occur to them to get a rulebook and study up. So we tell them that it might be to their benefit.

Chuck
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by gsf23

If an official makes a call, obviously he thinks that this is the right call or he wouldn't have made it. Now, what are you going to do as an official if a coach questions your application or interpretation of the rule? The coach is probably going to be told he is wrong and if persistant, will get a T. How many officials here would say, "you are right coach, my mistake." And I am talking about rules applications(like bonus free throws being awarded on a player control foul) not judgement calls (like a push or hold).
Normally, if the coach asks for an explanation, I figure I owe it to him/her to give one. I'll explain my call according to the rule (as I know it and interpret it) and if the coach disagrees I'll ask him/her what they saw. If their view disagrees with my mine, I'll quickly explain what I saw differently. If it continues from there, nothing good can happen so I'll usually cut it off and say "Coach, if it happened the way you saw it, I was wrong." Heck, we all make mistakes and until I can ref a game from the stands where they can see all the correct calls , I'll continue to make them. I think it's hard for a coach to rag on me if I admit I kicked a call.

Mregor
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
gsf23, what level do you coach? FT's awarded for a PC foul?

snaqwells
High School, Varsity game. In that situation, it wasn't really a player control foul, but that is what was called and reported to the table.

Well, here was the situation. My PG driving into the lane, just before my PG slams into a defender he drops the ball off to our center. Whistle, foul called and Player Control is signaled. The ref comes to the table and reports the foul as player control. Have no problem with the call at all, but as I look up they are lining up to shoot the bonus. So of course I jump up and am wondering why we are shooting fouls for player control. The ref came over and told me that my point guard passed the ball off before the contact so it wasn't player control and we are shooting the bonus. I said "So it was a charge and not player control then?" He said "yes", I said thank you and sat down.

And Chuck
Coaches and players, however, often think they already know the rules well enough and it would never occur to them to get a rulebook and study up. So we tell them that it might be to their benefit.
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I agree with you that some coaches do need to know more about the rules of the game they are teaching. As a coach it would just be nice if someone would find out what I do know, before telling me to get a book. That was my only point there. Thanks.

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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]
He should definitely know better. That goes without saying; which, I guess, is why it went without saying. [/B][/QUOTE]Sez you! Well,I say that you said it,so it didn't go without saying. 'Nuff said!
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 03:10pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by gsf23
The point I was trying to make was that why should the coach in this situation get a rulebook?

Because most officials have better rule knowledge than this guy and it would serve you better to prepare for the usual rather than the exception(s). If you study the rules, you'll have less heartburn in the long run because you'll realize that most refs really do know the rules and you can spend less time questioning and more time coaching.

Why hasn't someone said "that official should get a rule book then."

That's exactly what I was implying with my previous post when I said the ref needs to spend more time studying.

Just seems to me that when a coach comes to this board with a question about a call, whether the call was right or wrong the coach gets told to know the rules.

Actually, I think we're harder on each other (us refs) when someone screws up a rule. My personal experience (I was a high school and college player and then a J.C. coach) is that coaches don't read rule books (I didn't as a coach which I kick myself for now). Getting questioned as an official comes with the territory, but it's more frustrating when a coach is whining about something that you got right and based on what he's saying, you know he's never cracked open a rule book.
Now, what are you going to do as an official if a coach questions your application or interpretation of the rule?

If he's nice about it, we'll have a pleasant conversation. I pride myself in knowing the rules, even the once-in-a-lifetime ones...but if I think I might have blown it, I'll own up. If I feel that his approach is an attack rather than a question, the conversation will be very short and I'll walk away.

The coach is probably going to be told he is wrong and if persistant, will get a T. How many officials here would say, "you are right coach, my mistake."

I would.

Z
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Old Thu Feb 27, 2003, 03:12pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mregor
Quote:
Originally posted by gsf23

Heck, we all make mistakes and until I can ref a game from the stands where they can see all the correct calls , I'll continue to make them. I think it's hard for a coach to rag on me if I admit I kicked a call.

Mregor
I agree with you Mregor, as a coach I have a lot more respect for the guy who will admit he may have made a mistake. Do I expect him to change the call? No, but I have a lot more respect for that guy than the guy who will never admit to a coach that he may have made a mistake.

They showed a great exchange between Art Howe, who was miked, and Jerry Crawford during a baseball game a few years ago. Crawford made an out call on a ball that, replays showed had hit the ground first. It was the last out of the inning so Howe came running out to argu the call and Crawford said to him. "I may have missed that one, it sure looked like a catch at first but now I don't know." Art said to him "Jerry that cost us a run there." And Crawford says, " I know, but it sure did look like a catch, I'll get a better angle on the next one" Art says alright and goes back to the dugout. Great piece of officiating on a tough call I thought. But I know a lot of officials that would never admit that they may have missed one.

I do know what you guys are going through, I ump both college fastpitch and college and amatuer baseball in the summer. This is my first year of coaching basketball so I am trying very hard to increase my rules knowledge, and this board and you guys have helped me out a lot. Thanks.

[Edited by gsf23 on Feb 27th, 2003 at 02:16 PM]
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