The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 13, 2007, 05:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern OH
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
I see your logic, but can't agree with it. There's nothing in the book at all that addresses or implies that a runner cannot overrun a base - it happens all the time. The logic of saying that a runner is ALWAYS either occupyign a base or between bases is faulty. Consider a normal R2 that accidentally overruns 3rd base. Say he overruns slightly to the left - ok, I can see you saying he's (2) between 3rd and home. Say he overruns it directly ahead - since he's not occupying a base, by your logic he must be between bases. Which bases? 3rd and home? I don't see that, but say you're right. Now what about if he overruns it slightly to the right? What bases is he between now? What about 45 degrees to the right - he's equally not between home and 3rd and not between 2nd and 3rd. He's obviously "beyond" third - but lets say he decides to run to either 2nd or home --- to which direction would you require a retouch ... and if another runner ran up behind him to 3rd base - how could you call that runner out for passing? At what angle do you start considering this runner as being between 2nd and 3rd..
My definition or interpretation of which baseline he is in is determined by which direction he was heading the last time he touched a base and not where he was physically.
Example: If he's coming from 2nd, touches and overslides 3rd, then I have him between 3rd and home no matter which side of the bag he is on.
If he rounds 3rd going for home then retreats and overruns, stumbles or overslides third coming back then I have him between 2nd and 3rd regardless of which way he stumbles after retouching.

I agree that runners over run and overslide bases all the time, IMO that just puts them in the next baseline forward or backward depending on which way they were headed when they overslid. No need to get the measuring stick out to determine which baseline their closer too.
Whether you agree or not is another issue, but based on my logic I'm sure you see it is very easy to determine when R3 has been passed.
If my interp puts R3 between 2nd and 3rd and R2 is on 3rd, then R2 has passed R3 no matter where R3 is on the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
My point is, however, that there IS a limbo area where a runner inadvertently overruns a base and is neither (1) occupying a base nor (2) between two specific bases..
Logically I can't get my arms around a "limbo area" unless you can support it with a rule or case or even implied somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
I brought this scenario to a couple of higher ups - and it generated some interesting conversation ... but the consensus seemed to agree that to call a runner out for passing, that runner must be physically beyond the preceding runner with respect to a specific baseline - in other words, draw a straight line between bases, ignore how far from that line in a perpendicular direction a runner has strayed, and simply rule whether the succeeding runner has advanced fully beyond the preceding runner with respect to that line. Distance away from a specific base shouldn't come into play, only distance away along the baseline..
I agree, when both runners are in the same baseline. But when one is on a base and the other is not then something has to give and I don't want to go to war with the limbo theory.
(poking fun at the theory, not the theorizer)
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 07:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Let's decide who would have been out had R3 also made it safely back to 3B.

Is it proper for only 1 runner to be out and/or occupy 3B in this situation?
Did R3 lose his right to occupy 3B when caught in a rundown between 3B and Home?
Does R2 acquire the right to advance to a proper unoccupied 3B by Rule 8-2-7?
Edited to delete: {I would not punish R2 for the baserunning mistakes made by R3.}
I would properly declare R3 out.
Egads - why do you call yourself umpire? You would improperly call R3 out, and if the coach had any rules-sense at all, you would spend an evening explaining yourself to a protest committee, who would overrule you, and then another evening with the UIC, walking you through this VERY simple rule. You don't get to choose whether or not to "punish" a particular runner - the rule is EXCEEDINGLY clear - R2 would be out.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 11:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
OP: "Third baseman heads to tag R3 off the bag."
Possession is 9/10ths of the LAW. R3 cannot run to 2B {I see others are having trouble with this, } and he cannot run 3 ft away from the tag and toward home plate either. It would take a miracle for R3 to legally run under or over F5 and regain possesion of 3B. I also assume F5 is competent and does not drop the ball after making a legal tag on R3. R3 is out and R2 is safe at 3B.
You seem to have completely missed the point (not surprising, as the point was muddied by a good number of side-issues).

The point of the original poster (a point I obviously disagree with, but it is the point that is actually under discussion) was that in a sitch like this, has R2 - who has obtained 3rd base - actually passed R3, who is in left field by a few steps. I still say no ... but this contention is the point under discussion. And if they are right, then R2 is out before any tag attempt on R3 even starts.

(In response to what you've said, though, and at the risk of creating yet ANOTHER side conversation ... R3 is not out until he's either tagged, or runs out of the baseline to avoid a tag attempt. And R3 is not out if F5 tags him while he's on the base (which you seem to say, and did ACTUALLY say in a separate post). Falling over the base, by itself, is not enough to call him out. Not sure if that's what you meant to imply, but that's the way I read it.)
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Muddied over R2 passing R3 are the actions of R3 retreating past 3B. I would add to your argument that R3 cannot legally run back toward 2B by rule. Things may have been different between bases, but a rule prevents R3 from running back to 2B after legally obtaining 3B. That cannot happen. I would also add to your argument that as long as R2 has not passed 3B, then R2 cannot be considered past R3. Like you, I am not convinced that R2 has passed R3 in this situation. Therefore, I cannot rule R2 out for passing a preceeding runner.

I agree the playing action on R3 places R3 in "limbo" until action allows an umpire to make an out call on R3. As presented, R3 must be out by tag and R2 must be safe on 3B. If both runners are considered "safe on the same bag" and both are tagged, then by rule, R2 would be out ( I also agree with you) as the bag belongs to R3 by FED rule 8-2-7 and OBR 7-3.
I hate to disagree with you, since you are kind of supporting my argument ... but I would ask you what rule you are using to claim that R3 cannot run toward 2nd. I'd love it to be true, but I don't believe it's true. He can't run the bases backward to create a travesty of the game ... but that doesn't mean he simply can't run the bases in reverse order at all.

Picture just R3. He gets caught in a rundown, is running from the catcher, gets to the bag and can't stop. He can certainly run back toward 2nd. You're not going to call him out the moment he takes a step toward 2nd, are you?
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Remember R2 is still on 3B. It would confuse me if I saw R3 heading to 2B.

OBR 7.08 (i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

Yes, I feel the criteria of OBR 7.08(i) has been met. I thought this rule requires a runner to make an attempt to remain on his last legally acquired base or make an attempt to advance onward to the next base. R3 would be declared out for failing to maintain his last legally acquired base and retreating back toward 2B, while R2 has legally acquired 3B.
How is the criteria for this rule been met? At what point is R3 making a travesty of the game or attemting to confuse the defense? He tripped over the bag.
Since he's not touching the bag, and he's not between scoring and third, where is he? That's why I think R2 should be out, he has advanced to a point on the basepaths closer to scoring than R3.
__________________
"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman

Last edited by ctblu40; Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 02:16pm.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 01:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Remember R2 is still on 3B. It would confuse me if I saw R3 heading to 2B.

OBR 7.08 (i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

Yes, I feel the criteria of OBR 7.08(i) has been met. I thought this rule requires a runner to make an attempt to remain on his last legally acquired base or make an attempt to advance onward to the next base. R3 would be declared out for failing to maintain his last legally acquired base and retreating back toward 2B, while R2 has legally acquired 3B.
What criteria were met?

How was he confusing the defense (not you, the defense)?

How was it a travesty?

I'm really glad you're too far away to ever have one of my games.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
R2 while maintaining 3B is out and R3 while in LIMBO is in jeapoardy of being tagged out. That would be a double play. Just perfect if if I was convinced R2 had passed R3 on the base paths. How would you explain this without making UP the rules that Mr. Carlucci knows are not in place?
I think we can agree that thr rules don't cover every situation. So we as umpires do our best to find a rule that we think best fits the situation at hand. I think explain to the coach that R3 was in between 2nd and 3rd, and R2 was on 3rd, therefore, R2 was past R3. That' why R2 is out.
__________________
"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 02:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 505
Anyone want Rick Roder's ruling?

I just received an e-mail back from Mr. Roder with an answer to this question... interested?
__________________
"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 02:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

ctblu40,

Quit teasing and spill the beans!

I'd be very curious to hear if Rick was able to make any sense of this thread.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 02:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 505
Ok... here it is!

My outgoing e-mail:
Quote:
A situation has presented itself during a discussion on a message board that has seemed to reach a stalemate. I was wondering if you could offer some guidance. The situation is this:



R2,R3, - R3 in a run down, R2 moves to and is on third base, R3 is retreating to third, stumbles as he gets to third, trips and heads past third toward the outfield, over running the bag, Third baseman heads to tag R3 off the bag. Whats the call??



My response was that R2 should be called out for passing R3, and if R3 is tagged off the bag, he too should be called out.



Another poster replied that "(I) Can't see how you can rule R2 out for passing R3 on this play unless R3's stumble took him CONSIDERABLY toward 2nd base (completely and unmistakenly behind R2 if viewed from, say, PU's vantagepoint). A simple stumble up the 3rd baseline doesn't put him "behind" 3rd base - it just puts him OFF 3rd base and liable to be tagged."



What would the correct ruling be?
And the reply....

Quote:

The person who posted the opinion near the end of your email is exactly right. The only way R2 would be out for passing is if he moved his body to the home plate side of third base while R3 was off the base toward left field OR R3 returned behind R2 in the direction of second base. It is of course umpire judgment as to whether R2 passed R3, but in the way it is described, he has not.



Hope that helps,

Rick


mcrowder, SAump and the rest......

I bow to you and am humbled by your presence.... now where's my plate of Crow?
__________________
"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 03:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
R2 is on 3B and R3 makes it safely back to 2B.
Do you have anything other than R3 being out?
Yes, I have R2 out and R3 safe on 2nd. R3 can only be called out for running the bases in reverse if he is doing it to confuse the defense or to make a travesty of the game. Desperately trying to get to a base safely is neither of these.

In our case, we have R3 between 3rd and 2nd with F5 between R3 and 3rd. So he is now in a run down between 3rd and 2nd and may legally retreat to 2nd base.

R2 is out for allowing himself to get in front of R3.
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 03:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern OH
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Muddied over R2 passing R3 are the actions of R3 retreating past 3B. I would add to your argument that R3 cannot legally run back toward 2B by rule. Things may have been different between bases, but a rule prevents R3 from running back to 2B after legally obtaining 3B. That cannot happen. I would also add to your argument that as long as R2 has not passed 3B, then R2 cannot be considered past R3. Like you, I am not convinced that R2 has passed R3 in this situation. Therefore, I cannot rule R2 out for passing a preceeding runner.

I agree the playing action on R3 places R3 in "limbo" until action allows an umpire to make an out call on R3. As presented, R3 must be out by tag and R2 must be safe on 3B. If both runners are considered "safe on the same bag" and both are tagged, then by rule, R2 would be out ( I also agree with you) as the bag belongs to R3 by FED rule 8-2-7 and OBR 7-3.
Are we going to see "limbo" defined in section 2 next year?

In the situation that began this thread Sa is right, R3 cannot return to 2nd, though it is not always the case. A runner can legally obtain a base then retreat to a previous base as long as the base is unoccupied and the pitcher has not assumed his pitching position.
The fact that R3 cannot legally retreat back to 2nd does not prevent him from being in the 2nd to 3rd baseline. IMHO

F2 is chasing R3 back to 3rd, R2 is on 3rd, R3 overruns 3rd directly down the line. The limbo theory, I think, considers R3 to be equal with R2 at this point, not behind. Therefore, theoretically speaking, R3 is on the bag. As F5 gets to the bag he tags R2, who is standing on the bag. Out or Safe?
Here is the key
R2 can only be safe if you deem R3 to be ahead of R2 in the baseline. If R2 is equal to or ahead of R3 he is out.

I've got two outs and happy.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 04:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
Until anybody actually grasps the concept of what the base line actually is, some will argue all day. Hint: it is not a direct line between bases. If it was, every runner would be taking a ninety degree left turn. Another theory that doesn't make sense.
You're right - until SOMEONE grasps that simple concept, you will argue with us all day. Hint: Yes it is. (And no rule says anything about the runner having to run directly on the baseline, or take 90 degree turns.)

The BASE LINE is the direct line between bases. The other thing you have described is the basePATH, and is a completely different thing.

And I think this one finally pushed me over the edge. I vow to no longer engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 04:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
OBR 7.08 (i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

Yes, I feel the criteria of OBR 7.08(i) has been met. I thought this rule requires a runner to make an attempt to remain on his last legally acquired base or make an attempt to advance onward to the next base. R3 would be declared out for failing to maintain his last legally acquired base and retreating back toward 2B, while R2 has legally acquired 3B.
No, the rule requires no such thing. If it meant that - it would be more simple, and just say, "If after he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order, the runner is to be declared out." There is a REASON for the dependent clause that appears after that in the rule. If the runner is running the bases in reverse to make a travesty of the game, call him out. If he's doing it to confuse the defense - call him out. Neither the OP nor my other sitch are intentional efforts to confuse or make a travesty. In my other sitch, he's retreating (legally, I might add) to avoid being tagged, and it's completely legal.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 14, 2007, 04:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
R2 is on 3B and R3 makes it safely back to 2B.
Do you have anything other than R3 being out?
What has happened to require R3 to be called out? Nothing, yet.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1