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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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I'm with PW on this one. If R2 is on third and R3 has not scored, is not between home and third nor is he on third, then my logic tells me he is behind R2. R2 is out and R3 is at risk. It's the most logical call, easiest to explain and therefore easiest to sell of all the options available. Gets my vote |
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1st and that's a one time option for BR. Therefore a runner can only be in one of two places. 1. Occupying a base or 2. Between bases There is no runners purgatory, there's only two choices. If R3 has retreated past 3rd he is no longer between 3rd and home. he is not on 3rd therefore he is between 2nd and 3rd. It doesn't matter that he is on the 3rd base line he is between 2nd and 3rd by rule. If he is between 2nd and 3rd he certainly must retag 3rd to go home. If he has to retag 3rd and r2 is on third then r2 must have passed him by rule. If there is somewhere else a runner can be besides between or on a base I'm open to learn and rethink my position. |
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I still say one runner must physically pass the other in the base path. If R3 stumbles past 3B and falls 4 feet behind the bag, and R2 is advancing toward 3B, when does R2 "pass" R3? When R2 gets within 4 feet of 3B? If both R3 and R2 are scrambling to 3B, do we call R2 out when his distance from 3B is less than R3's?
To me, even if R3 retreats to 3B and continues 10 feet down the LF line, he's still on 3B for the purposes of being passed. If R3, retreating, overran 3B and did not move toward 2B, I would not require a touch of 3B if he then proceeded home. I would call plays according to these interpretations. Unfortunately, I see no case play in J/R, PBUC, BRD, or Annotated Rule Book, so all us arguing our conception of what constitutes "passing" is probably not going to accomplish much.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide! |
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As an aside, this is a question that really 'could' and 'should' generate a great discussion and usually a much deeper understanding of the rules. But if it turns into a pi$$ing contest, who is to gain?
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"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman |
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Now back to the OP, after R3 overruns third base in a direction further away from home plate, he is now between second and third. At this point R2 is closer to the advanced base of R3, which is now third base, because R2 is touching third and R3 is not. What do you think guys? Edited to add: What did Cece say 3apps? and why am I unable to get this sitch out of my mind?
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"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman Last edited by ctblu40; Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 09:00am. |
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What say you SA?
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"They can holler at the uniform all they want, but when they start hollering at the man wearing the uniform they're going to be in trouble."- Joe Brinkman |
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The J/R example is an obvious case. "Rounds 1B and passes him" clearly indicates passing on the base paths.
If BR overruns 1B down the RF line, did he pass a preceding runner whose foot is touching 1B? I would say no, though I admit you could argue that this is a special case. Abel on 1B. Baker hits a liner at F4. Abel, who had started toward 2B, dives back into 1B, but his momentum is too great, so he fails to hold onto the bag and skids into foul territory. The ball deflects off F4's glove and rolls toward the foul line, away from both F4 and F9. Baker steps on 1B as Abel, lying in foul territory unable to reach 1B with his outstretched hands, gets up and, finally grasping the situation, tries to make it to 2B. Did Baker pass Abel by stepping on 1B? I would say no. Does Abel have to touch 1B on the way to 2B? Again I would say no. Now, with Abel lying on the foul side of 1B: a. If Baker makes any kind of motion past 1B toward 2B, he has passed Abel. b. Same if Baker stops on 1B with one foot toward 2B. c. If Baker overruns 1B toward RF . . . that's a tough one, but I still don't think I'd call that passing the runner.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide! |
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From a strictly logical perspective this seems irrefutable. If there is precedent or rule that contradicts this logic I'm more than willing to accept it. If there is not, then IMO it only makes sense to take the rule as stated and deal with it logically. |
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I return to OP
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Is it proper for only 1 runner to be out and/or occupy 3B in this situation? Did R3 lose his right to occupy 3B when caught in a rundown between 3B and Home? Does R2 acquire the right to advance to a proper unoccupied 3B by Rule 8-2-7? Edited to delete: {I would not punish R2 for the baserunning mistakes made by R3.} I would properly declare R3 out. Last edit to bold words in OP and to state that R2 would legally remain on 3B. Last edited by SAump; Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 11:14am. |
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R2 made the baserunning mistake by advancing to a base occupied by a preceeding runner. |
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R3 wasn't forced, therefore it's his base unitl he legally touches the next base. R2 being there doesn't change that. If R2 and R3 are touching at the same time, R2 is out when tagged. No ifs, ands, buts, shouldas, or wouldas about it.
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong |
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Yeah - horribly long paragraph, and I apologize. My point is, however, that there IS a limbo area where a runner inadvertently overruns a base and is neither (1) occupying a base nor (2) between two specific bases. I brought this scenario to a couple of higher ups - and it generated some interesting conversation ... but the consensus seemed to agree that to call a runner out for passing, that runner must be physically beyond the preceding runner with respect to a specific baseline - in other words, draw a straight line between bases, ignore how far from that line in a perpendicular direction a runner has strayed, and simply rule whether the succeeding runner has advanced fully beyond the preceding runner with respect to that line. Distance away from a specific base shouldn't come into play, only distance away along the baseline.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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