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Originally Posted by mcrowder
I see your logic, but can't agree with it. There's nothing in the book at all that addresses or implies that a runner cannot overrun a base - it happens all the time. The logic of saying that a runner is ALWAYS either occupyign a base or between bases is faulty. Consider a normal R2 that accidentally overruns 3rd base. Say he overruns slightly to the left - ok, I can see you saying he's (2) between 3rd and home. Say he overruns it directly ahead - since he's not occupying a base, by your logic he must be between bases. Which bases? 3rd and home? I don't see that, but say you're right. Now what about if he overruns it slightly to the right? What bases is he between now? What about 45 degrees to the right - he's equally not between home and 3rd and not between 2nd and 3rd. He's obviously "beyond" third - but lets say he decides to run to either 2nd or home --- to which direction would you require a retouch ... and if another runner ran up behind him to 3rd base - how could you call that runner out for passing? At what angle do you start considering this runner as being between 2nd and 3rd..
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My definition or interpretation of which baseline he is in is determined by which direction he was heading the last time he touched a base and not where he was physically.
Example: If he's coming from 2nd, touches and overslides 3rd, then I have him between 3rd and home no matter which side of the bag he is on.
If he rounds 3rd going for home then retreats and overruns, stumbles or overslides third coming back then I have him between 2nd and 3rd regardless of which way he stumbles after retouching.
I agree that runners over run and overslide bases all the time, IMO that just puts them in the next baseline forward or backward depending on which way they were headed when they overslid. No need to get the measuring stick out to determine which baseline their closer too.
Whether you agree or not is another issue, but based on my logic I'm sure you see it is very easy to determine when R3 has been passed.
If my interp puts R3 between 2nd and 3rd and R2 is on 3rd, then R2 has passed R3 no matter where R3 is on the field.
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Originally Posted by mcrowder
My point is, however, that there IS a limbo area where a runner inadvertently overruns a base and is neither (1) occupying a base nor (2) between two specific bases..
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Logically I can't get my arms around a "limbo area" unless you can support it with a rule or case or even implied somewhere.
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Originally Posted by mcrowder
I brought this scenario to a couple of higher ups - and it generated some interesting conversation ... but the consensus seemed to agree that to call a runner out for passing, that runner must be physically beyond the preceding runner with respect to a specific baseline - in other words, draw a straight line between bases, ignore how far from that line in a perpendicular direction a runner has strayed, and simply rule whether the succeeding runner has advanced fully beyond the preceding runner with respect to that line. Distance away from a specific base shouldn't come into play, only distance away along the baseline..
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I agree, when both runners are in the same baseline. But when one is on a base and the other is not then something has to give and I don't want to go to war with the limbo theory.
(poking fun at the theory, not the theorizer)