"Help" Plays

[BlueLawyer]

Here's one that has been bothering me for a while.

Does anybody out there have an authoritative list of "help" plays?

Example: a check swing that the Plate Umpire sends down to U1 or U3. Common "help" play. Pulled foot or swipe tag on the BR before he reaches first that U1 sends back to PU- common help play.

As a related question, does anybody know when it's proper to ask for help on the play, when it's ok to refuse to go get help and when the other umpire should jump in without being asked. For example: check swing is a help play- when to ask is when the CATCHER (at least in my association) asks or when the PU might have been screened on the play . . . but when does PU say "No, I ain't sending that one down to my partner." Here in my association, we pregame that the Base Umpire(s) are supposed to immediately kill a foul ball that hits the batter in the box, without being asked for help.

The purpose of this post is to provide a decent reply to the coach when he asks/argues:

Coach: "I think you got that call wrong. Can you go get help from your partner?"

Blue: "Coach, that's not a help play. That call is all mine."

Coach: "Why isn't it a help play? Why can't you ask?"

Blue: " . . ." or "Because it's not."

A reasonable question deserves a reasonable answer. And for my own edification, I'd like to know if there is a decent answer.

Strikes and outs!

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

For example: check swing is a help play- when to ask is when the CATCHER (at least in my association) asks or when the PU might have been screened on the play

the catcher doesnt appeal, he asks PU for an appeal. i dont do anything until my PU comes to me.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

the catcher doesnt appeal, he asks PU for an appeal. i dont do anything until my PU comes to me.

You are right and that's what I mean. "When to ask" is when do you ask your partner for help- i.e.- the plate umpire asks the base guy for help on a check swing after the catcher asks the plate ump.

Strikes and outs!

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

Here's one that has been bothering me for a while.

Does anybody out there have an authoritative list of "help" plays?

NCAA guidelines:

An umpire is urged to seek help when his view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. An umpire is also encouraged to seek help in instances when he has any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.

In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.

Umpires are not to seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases where a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls be reversed in this situation.

Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Dropped foul tips should be called by BU immediately without waiting to be asked, as should dropped or juggled balls on tag plays.

Edited: That is to say on dropped or juggled balls, the BU should alert the PU immediately to the fact that the ball is laying on the ground, and you a big dummy, Lamont.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by Justme

NCAA guidelines:
[...]

BigUmp56 posted a similar set of guidelines from the MLBUM in the Over Rule thread.

-LilLeaguer

[JRutledge]

On a dropped third strike, the BU should do nothing and give help after the play is over.

On a dropped ball on tag plays no one should do anything until being asked or after the play is over. It is possible that the helping umpire did not see how the ball got on the ground and would be coming in too early to help when the call is appropriately made.

Peace

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

On a dropped third strike, the BU should do nothing and give help after the play is over.

i believe i have read an "advanced mechanic" on here stating that if there is an uncaught third strike, and the batter attempts to check his swing, the BU should immediately give his call -- the one he would make if he would be appealed to -- rather than wait.

[LMan]

What about Catcher's INT (OBS)? If there's a question as to whether the bat hit the catcher's mitt, can the PU ask the BU for information on this?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by LMan

What about Catcher's INT (OBS)? If there's a question as to whether the bat hit the catcher's mitt, can the PU ask the BU for information on this?

I suppose he could ask for help, but I don't see why he ever would. More often than not the CI call is made on sound. The PU definetly will hear the bat contact the mitt while the BU may not.


Tim.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

i believe i have read an "advanced mechanic" on here stating that if there is an uncaught third strike, and the batter attempts to check his swing, the BU should immediately give his call -- the one he would make if he would be appealed to -- rather than wait.

I have heard a similar mechanic as well, but I have never read or been taught that is the proper thing to do in this specific situation. That does not mean you could not do that, I just think you should not make a call in this situation without some the PU asking. I have been taught to give silent signals to indicate that we have the ball hitting the dirt or not (if the BU can see it), but those signals are not obvious to everyone and are there to allow the PU to make an "educated" call. I also think the catcher has to be smart enough to know the situation or the possible call and either tag the runner or throw/not throw the ball to first base.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

On a dropped ball on tag plays no one should do anything until being asked or after the play is over. It is possible that the helping umpire did not see how the ball got on the ground and would be coming in too early to help when the call is appropriately made.

I was referring to plays at the plate where the catcher clearly dropped the ball, and for whatever reason, the PU was the only person in attendance who did not see it. You are supposed to bring this to his attention, so he can correct his call which was obviously wrong. Close plays where the ball may or may not have come loose after the play was over are not included in this.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by Justme

NCAA guidelines:
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays.
7) Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.

This, at least, gives me a starting point. Thanks, Just. Is this in the CCA Manual, on the website, where?

Strikes and outs!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I was referring to plays at the plate where the catcher clearly dropped the ball, and for whatever reason, the PU was the only person in attendance who did not see it. You are supposed to bring this to his attention, so he can correct his call which was obviously wrong. Close plays where the ball may or may not have come loose after the play was over are not included in this.

That is why I feel you should discuss this kind of play with your partner to make sure you are not stepping on toes or making two different calls at the same time. I just do not like the BU making calls immediately when the PU likely has something different. I just think communication with your partner are key and make sure that both of you (or all of you) are on the same page.

Peace

[Tim C]

"Strikes and outs!"

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Regards,