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Sun Feb 05, 2006, 05:57pm
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The BIG GAME starts in a little while and the commercils were'nt rocking my world, so I though I'd check in here.
DCMB just amazes me. To wit - "all of us pay more for the neccessities of life" ... including MiLB umpires. But their pay has not increased accordingly and their purchashing power has decreased. This is something you continually refuse to acknowledge." I have done no such thing. They aren't forced to work that job for those wages. They signed contracts agreeing to the terms. You fail to acksnowledge that important piece of the puzzle. There are many people that wish that they had pay raises over the last five years (stop saying ten, they signed the contract five years ago, so you are misleading the board). Maybe the rate they are paid has not changed in ten years, but that would indicate that they were probably overpaid ten years ago. If they felt that it was a smart move to sign the contract five years ago, FOR THE SAME PAY RATE AS THEY HAD FOR THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS - then they are stupid. Like I said, it is time to dissolve that union and reorganize. Mr. Roberts may not have been involved in the original bragaining, but he is accountable now. Those two hundred and thirty members should realize that they are on a sinking ship.
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz 
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Sun Feb 05, 2006, 10:57pm
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Quote:
Actually...we are all on the outside of this...so we are the stupid ones. All we have are opinions and speculations. My opinion is I will not turn my back on my friends and other umpires. Your opinion is that you will.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 02:20am
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This is the second post I have made about name calling. Thump what is the problem with saying what he said? Windy/WWTB said that he wouldn't work the games but wouldn't fault me if I did. How is that turning his back on them? Living here makes it easy to make friends with some minor league boys. I have learned a lot from them and consider them to be good guys. But, if they walk out and the league contacts my assignor, I will gladly accept whatever games they throw my way. Why is okay for you to call me a scab but he can't say that they are stupid for walking away? I said it before, name calling doesn't impress most umpires. You made a mistake regarding Windy/WWTBs statement and now you accuse anyone who takes games of turning our backs on our brothers. He made a good point about paying bills. Why is it more important for them to pay their bills then for me? Your logic is even more disturbing than your name calling.
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"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 09:43am
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I don't know where I "called names" A scab is a scab...it's not name calling, it's exactly what it is. Somebody who crosses a pickett line. If you have friends that are minor league umpires, then yes, I would say you would be turning your back on them, because you'd be hurting them, and i'd stick up for a friend, EVEN IF I THOUGHT THEY WERE WRONG...which I obviously don't this time. If the word scab is offensive to anybody, then I'll just refer to these people as "people who cross pickett lines." I didn't know these terms would be so offensive.
I don't agree with anybody who says they need to fill in for these guys for the extra money. From what I hear these games will pay less than d3 games...the pay will more reflect a HS game. Unless baseball is really hard to come by in your area, I am sure there are PLEANTY of those types of high school and college games you could work and make just as much, without hurting what the minor league umpires are trying to do. I was just responding to the minor league umpires being called stupid by somebody who doesn't know all the facts. I don't know all the facts either...but when a few friends come to me, explain what they know, and ask me to help them out...I will. And I don't think they are stupid, so i'm going to stand up for them. They all seem to really respect Andy Roberts, so it's hard for me to listen to guys say that he is a horrible leader.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 10:09am
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Pete had made it clear where he stands, for WWTB's argument that the 10 year multiple doens't apply...most of the guys that are in the game now - the people who make up the majority of the union and will not only be voting on this contract but will be the ones living with it for the majority of their careers (yes, I said the C-word) - weren't in the game 10 or 5 years ago. They didn't have a choice (I know, you're gonna say they knew what they were getting into when they signed on) but you can't say the 10 year arugment doesn't apply because they "accepted" it, a 25 year old in AA ball was 15 10 years ago and probably working LL ball.
"Maybe" (MAYBE? no, fact) "the rate they are paid has not changed in ten years, but that would indicate that they were probably overpaid ten years ago." How do you figure? This would seem to imply that they couldn't have both been underpaid both then and now, which is most likely the case. I know they agreed to work for a rate, which to you would imply they were paid accurately. I would argue that they accepted nonmonetary things before and now is the time for earnings to improve. "If they felt that it was a smart move to sign the contract five years ago, FOR THE SAME PAY RATE AS THEY HAD FOR THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS - then they are stupid. Like I said, it is time to dissolve that union and reorganize. Mr. Roberts may not have been involved in the original bragaining, but he is accountable now. Those two hundred and thirty members should realize that they are on a sinking ship." Your lack of support for fellow umpires is disheartening at BEST... Last edited by dontcallmeblue; Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 11:11am.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 10:23am
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Well,
My view about the original contract is that:
1) The most important thing was to establish the union as a viable organization to collectivly pull individuals into a bargining unit. 2) Because the most important part was to form the union the orignal demands were kept to a minimum. Why antagonize the owners to a point that they would fight the union before it was even recognized? 3) The original wages and fringe benefits were establish by the common council of umpires/owners. The umpire representatives were smart enough to understand that for the future of having the union it was important to take a non-antagonistic position. They did that. 4) The original contract was accepted without much rancor. The umpires received small increases -- but more importantly -- the union was sanctioned and became part of the future of MiLB. That was the critical issue that was accomplished in the original deal. 5) Let's face one thing: MiLB umpires have NEVER been "over paid." The stories are documented about sleeping in cars, getting free meals from fans, and even selling "game used" baseballs to get enough money to even buy gas to get to the next game site. So this is the "first" real postioning by the "union" to influence AMLU salaries. We know the umpires need and deserve more money. The real question is how long will it take for them to get to a "workable and livable" wage that allows them the comfort they deserve. I doubt if they can get there in one contract . . . and in these times, I doubt if any type of a job action will be affective. But that is why they have people that fight for their rights. Of course, this is just my opinion. [Edited by Tim C on Feb 6th, 2006 at 11:07 AM]
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 10:37am
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"So this is the "first" real postioning by the "union" to influence AMLU salaries.
We know the umpires need and deserve more money. The real question is how long will it take for them to get to a "workable and livable" wage that allows them the comfort they deserve. I doubt if they can get there in one contract . . . and in these times, I doubt if any type of a job action will be affective." Last edited by dontcallmeblue; Sun Apr 02, 2006 at 11:11am.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 12:09pm
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Agreed...great post Tim.
I think the umpires just want to see improvements in this contract...they dont want to change the system in one swoop...but they just want to make sure things don't continue to stay the same (which is actually making it worse because of inflation). The first offer from minor league baseball pretty much was what the old offer was. That was rejected. Minor League Baseball can do better than that. If they offered a contract that actually was an improvment, it'd be interesting to see what would happen then. But if that is all minor league baseball is going to offer, then what choice to the guys have but to walk? It's been 10 years...they can't agree to make it 15. And if they did...it would make it even harder to do anythign 5 years down the line. This is the first time they will negotiate while being unionized. And really, it's not a normal union, it's more of just bringing all the umpires together, because 5 years ago...they were VERY disorganized from what I hear...and now they seem to all be on the same page.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 05:05pm
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knowing the story
I know some of you have eluded to this, but I haven't read a post on this entire subject that is from someone who knows the whole story. I'd like to tell you the whole story, but I don't have the time. Also, I don't know the whole story. I continue to learn because I have kept my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open for the past three seasons, but the fact remains that I was not around the last time. That means I will probably never know the ultimate truth about the past negotiation period.
I do know this: one of the reasons that more things did not get accomplished last time was because of lack of communication. A good percentage of umpires sent their contracts in because they didn't understand the process (or at least that is what I've been led to believe). Communication is a tough thing for this union, but has been outstanding for the last few years. As for compensation for our work: I never believed that it was fair. I did know what I was signing on for. I also knew that I had a fairly new union trying to make things better since people in the past were unable. This contract is about more than compensation. This contract is about making our working conditions/road conditions a little better. We are not asking for the world. I never expected for MiLB to accept our first proposal for a contract, as I'm sure they didn't expect us to fold for their first either. This is how negotiations work. And we are fighting for things that we believe (and others believe) are important. Finally, as for the comments made about me personally: I don't know who you are, when I've worked with you last, or how well you know I work now. What I do know is that I support every umpire that is WORKING HARD, TRYING TO GET BETTER, AND LOVING THE JOB THAT THEY ARE DOING just like I am; I know that I am getting better and working hard towards my goal. THAT IS NOT BEING CONCEDED. And not that I need another reason, but you have given me a new incentive to try and reach my goal and I'll do everything that I can to get to that ultimate level of baseball. Please continue to banter about things you guys are not well versed in. But if any of you have a problem with me, feel free to hash it out with me personally. Derek Crabill
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 05:44pm
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Attaboy Derek - You showed me!
Go back and read the post tat mentioned you. I took your quote from the AMLU board and put it here. You wrote those words, remember? The gist was that if MiLB came across with more money soon, you guys could concentrate better on the game. I can go get the exact wors, but you and I know that the synopsis is accuarate. What in the world were you thinking when you typed those words? Your season ended and the contract exired in November. You should have had no problem focusing on the task. To imply otherwise would indicate that your dream is farther out of reach than you acknowledge. Also, I complemented you and said that your talent may best be served locally if your colleagues walk away from their ST assignments. To say that I motivated you to achieve is about as pointless as lacking concentration on an MiLB field. Lastly, I'me better versed than you suspect. I have contacts in the Minors home office still. I speak with Fitz' gang a few times a year and know a dozen guys in AA and AAA. I've been told about how the AMLU is demanding conduct penalties for coaches and players, better per diems and living arrangements for ST and a better transport allowance. Now, those things don't seem far fetched (well, sanctions for players and coaches does, but I don't want to hurt your feelings), but to say that we don't know what is going on is egotistical. While you were still in diapers, I was working my assignments in MiLB and we didn't have half the bennies you guys do. We ate and slept in my partner's car the first season. We had to buy our own gear and didn't make money teaching on the side. We ate, drank and slept our jobs. Complaining about three hour bull sessions after the game was not part of our psyche. We knew we were getting little pay, but we prayed that someone would recognize our talent for being greater than it really was. You ask us to support our brothers - I will. I will not work those games, even if asked. However, some of my friends will and I will happily watch them. They deserve to work those games if you and your colleagues walk away. Asking them to stay away is not a sign of solidarity. When amateur umpires hold out for more money, you are nowhere to be seen. At the IACAO clinics, the MiLB guys walk around with a haughty arrogance that wasn't present when I was in the ranks. Admit it, you think you are above High SChool and College ball. The way things are going, you may need those games to pay your bills. When the AMLU starts getting supportive of amateur organization bargaining then you can request that replacements become scarce. Until then, you are in a poker game with a losing hand. MiLB has deep pockets and knows that they can exist with replacements. The turnstiles will still move because fans go to see the game, not the umpire. You guys won't have the same luxury, when you stop working, the checks stop coming. Mr. Roberts, et al should have folded and asked for a new deck.
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 08:09pm
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Quote:
Sorry you have such bad feelings for the union. How about reducing the emotions, sticking with the facts for now & see how this all plays out?
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Mon Feb 06, 2006, 08:57pm
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Derek, Don't Bother
DC, we're behind you guys all the way. You don't need to justify anything to anyone out here, especially to that Windbag. The funny thing is that nobody has any idea what you're going thru, the decisions you're faced with. It's easy to second guess from our side of the fence.
This has been an interesting post...but me personally? When I see guys sacrificing the first 10 years of their post-College careers (families, jobs, etc.) to chase an all-or-nothing dream like this, they have my 100% support! It takes some real kahunas that most of us have never had. Stick to your dreams bro...catch ya down the road. JC
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Tue Feb 07, 2006, 01:07am
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Quote:
I only talked to the guy for a minute or two, but I'm behind him.
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Tue Feb 07, 2006, 04:15am
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My God, FVB9 you are delusional?
Where did I write that they don't deserve more money? Where did I write that they aren't allowed to dream? I've acknowledged that they are talented (even pointed out that DC was very good!) but will lose everything by walking away from their ST assignments. I have also written that this union is fooling themselves if they believe that they can make the Minor League powers blink. The contract should have been negotiated a year ago. I have spoken with a couple of guys in that group and they are disoragnized to say the least. They are seeking a laundry list of changes not just a few more dollars to live on. Umpires don't dictate the game. They should have learned that from their big brothers, but they are letting egos get in the way. They can't have it both ways. Most rational people know that they are considered to be in training. If the word apprenticeship offends you then that is too bad. They are fighting to be one of 68. The odds of becoming a MLB umpire are not good. They learned in pro school that they need to be one of the best dozen or so to earn a MiLB roster spot. The learn in Short A or Rookie Ball that they need to be one of ten to be asked to advance to Full A. The progression and odds continue until they are left with a tiny shot at the brass ring. Now, in all of my posts I have mentioned that while I respect that they want and deserve more, if they decide to walk away, any assignor that blackballs an umpire for taking those games is a major league a-hole. Who are you to say that it is more important for the minor leaguer to make ends meet than an amateur who is struggling to make ends meet? On one hand, you have a guy who signed on for the low pay in return for a shot at the dream. On the other you'e got a pretty talented umpire who could never afford to take that chance or is too old to do it now. He needs the money just as badly, but you say he's a scab for taking it. That's B.S.! I won't take those games, even if asked, but I will not hold it against someone who does. The Minor Leagues are proving grounds and if someone wants to test their abilities I say, go for it. Maybe they'll realize how difficult it is or maybe they'll shine. As an assignor, FVB9 why wouldn't you want the best games for your umpires? Oh yeah, loyalty to a few outweighs the betterment of the whole. When Chicagoland umpires were seeking pay raises for our games, did our Minor League brethren give a ****? I didn't see any of them standing up for our fights. If they made a bad business decision then they have to suffer the consequences. This next contract should ask for reasonable increases and recognize that they are apprenticing. Pretending that they control the league is tomfoolery.
__________________
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz
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