If a coach said....

[Rich Ives]

Man, it's a good thing that you don't have the dugouts bugged. ;-)

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by briancurtin

think about this though. who is he to tell you anything about umpiring? sure, hes a coach, and maybe he knows the game, but does he know umpiring? the answer is no, in almost all cases (99.999%). i dont think a police officer would appreciate it if you pulled over to the side of the road and told them how to aim their radar gun at passing cars. you dont know how to do it, you arent trained to do so.

I like the police analogy. They can be overly sensitive. I was late for a game once and got pulled over for doing 80 in a 40 mph zone. It took the cop forever to write out a ticket. After a while, I walked back to the patrol car, tapped on the window, and said to him, "I don't know if you noticed, but I was in a hurry."

[jicecone]

Originally posted by NSump

Hold on here. DON'T just let it go. It needs to be addressed. I suggest what Rich said.

The key is to ensure that the coach and EVERYBODY else knows you heard it and that any more bull**** like that will lead to an ejection.

The biggest problem with game management is that we fail to manage it early. Then, once we finally do, its too late.

Blaine

I disagree.

The biggest problem is that we fail to know when it needs managing and when it does not. Some games need NO management whatsoever, and many feel that they have to insert theirselves into the contest anyway.

Sometimes, responding to every comment shows the coach how thin skinned you really are. You have shown him how to get to you. Your playing right into his hand.

We are there to officiate a contest first. If somewhere along the line it requires a little managment, (late or early) then knowing when that point is and how to be effective, is the key.

Granted, at some point the coach will be given a warning that he may not be able to get back across the fence he is climbing, if he continues. But, there is no need to use this for every comment made.

I had a coach once tell me "thats two pitches you missed today blue." To which I replied, "and if that is all I miss for this game coach, then consider it a job well done."

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by jicecone

I disagree.

The biggest problem is that we fail to know when it needs managing and when it does not. Some games need NO management whatsoever, and many feel that they have to insert theirselves into the contest anyway.

Sometimes, responding to every comment shows the coach how thin skinned you really are. You have shown him how to get to you. Your playing right into his hand.

We are there to officiate a contest first. If somewhere along the line it requires a little managment, (late or early) then knowing when that point is and how to be effective, is the key.

Granted, at some point the coach will be given a warning that he may not be able to get back across the fence he is climbing, if he continues. But, there is no need to use this for every comment made.

I had a coach once tell me "thats two pitches you missed today blue." To which I replied, "and if that is all I miss for this game coach, then consider it a job well done."

Ignoring bench jockying is an invitation for escalation. Sometimes all that is needed is a stern look, or a quiet comment that you heard him. Other times, like in the original scenario, a warning is needed. But you can't just let it go. Too often, that is the reason they can't climb down off that fence. And ugly games never turn pretty again.

Mike

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Mike Walsh

Ignoring bench jockying is an invitation for escalation. Sometimes all that is needed is a stern look, or a quiet comment that you heard him. Other times, like in the original scenario, a warning is needed. But you can't just let it go. Too often, that is the reason they can't climb down off that fence. And ugly games never turn pretty again.

Mike

Who said anything about ignoring things?

If you feel that you have to insert yourself in every part of the game, go for it. I don't need to babysit and , my games NEVER get ugly.

The key is confidence in yourself and your ability to reel that rope in at any time to gain the control necessary to finish the games fairly and with minimum incidents.

For each of us, that confidence and tolerance may be different, based upon your experience. So what you may judge as being necessary to control, I may see as something that I should just ignor. Knowing when to insert yourself is a fine line that each official has to understand when applicable.

Having the ability to do so at the right time, is the separation between the good and really good official.

[umpduck11]

"Constructive criticism" is arguing
balls and strikes in disguise.

[NSump]

Originally posted by jicecone

I disagree.

The biggest problem is that we fail to know when it needs managing and when it does not. Some games need NO management whatsoever, and many feel that they have to insert theirselves into the contest anyway.

Sometimes, responding to every comment shows the coach how thin skinned you really are. You have shown him how to get to you. Your playing right into his hand.

We are there to officiate a contest first. If somewhere along the line it requires a little managment, (late or early) then knowing when that point is and how to be effective, is the key.

Granted, at some point the coach will be given a warning that he may not be able to get back across the fence he is climbing, if he continues. But, there is no need to use this for every comment made.

I had a coach once tell me "thats two pitches you missed today blue." To which I replied, "and if that is all I miss for this game coach, then consider it a job well done."

Jim, you proved my point. To THIS statement, you responded. You told the coach, in your way, "Listen butthead, I heard you now shut up."

I agree that not everything needs a response. But, THIS statement can't go unchallenged. Lots of other crap yes, but not THIS. Had the coach said something like, "come on blue we need that pitch," I ignore it. The difference is with the first statement is he is challenging me.

Everything else you have said, I agree. Well said.

Blaine

[NSump]

Originally posted by jicecone


Who said anything about ignoring things?

If you feel that you have to insert yourself in every part of the game, go for it. I don't need to babysit and , my games NEVER get ugly.

The key is confidence in yourself and your ability to reel that rope in at any time to gain the control necessary to finish the games fairly and with minimum incidents.

For each of us, that confidence and tolerance may be different, based upon your experience. So what you may judge as being necessary to control, I may see as something that I should just ignor. Knowing when to insert yourself is a fine line that each official has to understand when applicable.

Having the ability to do so at the right time, is the separation between the good and really good official. [/B]

Jim:

I agree with what you said, except one thing.

Your games Never GET UGLY? Hogwash. I have worked 25 years, multiple National Championships, etc. I have had the benches clear, 9 ejections in one game, yada, yada.

And I AM a very good official.

Some games just get out of control despite our best efforts. I have done everythign perfectly and have the benches clear. I have done a horsesh** job and had them clear. If you do enough games with guys who shave, you will have "ugly" games. If you don't belive me, just look at the Pros.....and I would suspect they are pretty good umpires too.

Blaine

[jicecone]

Originally posted by NSump

Jim:

I agree with what you said, except one thing.

Your games Never GET UGLY? Hogwash. I have worked 25 years, multiple National Championships, etc. I have had the benches clear, 9 ejections in one game, yada, yada.

And I AM a very good official.

Some games just get out of control despite our best efforts. I have done everythign perfectly and have the benches clear. I have done a horsesh** job and had them clear. If you do enough games with guys who shave, you will have "ugly" games. If you don't belive me, just look at the Pros.....and I would suspect they are pretty good umpires too.

Blaine

[/B]

Ok you caught me and I agree. But I am allowed to believe it.

I agree.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Do I eject a coach for saying something so pointless?

No.

What if he said, "That's about twelve you've missed today."?

Depending on the level of ball being played, I may just look at him and laugh. Who cares what a coach thinks about your call?

[Mike Walsh]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Jim:

(portions deleted)

And I AM a very good official.

(more deleted)
just look at the Pros.....and I would suspect they are pretty good umpires too.

Blaine

[/B][/QUOTE]
Now that's confidence!

Mike

[Rich]

Originally posted by jicecone

Who said anything about ignoring things?

If you feel that you have to insert yourself in every part of the game, go for it. I don't need to babysit and , my games NEVER get ugly.

The key is confidence in yourself and your ability to reel that rope in at any time to gain the control necessary to finish the games fairly and with minimum incidents.

For each of us, that confidence and tolerance may be different, based upon your experience. So what you may judge as being necessary to control, I may see as something that I should just ignor. Knowing when to insert yourself is a fine line that each official has to understand when applicable.

Having the ability to do so at the right time, is the separation between the good and really good official.

I don't feel the need to insert myself in every situation, but if a coach starts "counting" anything, I'm handling it.

[RPatrino]

We don't need to react to every assine statement a coach makes. Save the big ammo for when you need it. In this case I may ignore the remark, I may just look at him and shake my head, or I may say something like " gee coach, its only the 2nd inning". I really don't care what he thinks. Do you guys?

Never lose your head when all those around you are.

Bob

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't feel the need to insert myself in every situation, but if a coach starts "counting" anything, I'm handling it.

Please read my post again. You shouldn't care if he's counting how many 'bad' calls for the last ten years. Coaches opinions about my calls don't matter. Too mnay umpires worry about what coaches think and make calls accordingly. I don't expect to make calls based on whether they think it is correct or not.

[mbyron]

I like this thread.

The consensus seems to be: put up a measured or proportional response when the coach begins challenging you.

One difference between Jim's response and some others is that he is "deflecting" rather than "escalating." As Blaine notes, that does indicate to the coach that Jim heard him, but it disarms the comment rather than firing back.

Pro instructors have told me that game management can't really be taught. Fortunately, it's only a tiny percentage of what we do. Some guys know how to cope with situations, and some otherwise superlative umpires get blown up. It's the skill that allows you to advance to the highest levels of pro umpiring, and the rarity of situations is one reason that the apprenticeship is so long.

My own view is that good management requires both a thick skin and good ears; both wisdom and courage; both patience and aggressiveness; and both backbone and balls. To some it comes naturally, others take years to develop it, and some never get it.

And they're all here on the forum!