New Balk - or not I'm not sure.

[3appleshigh]

This is probably a HTBT, but here is what i have.

R1 - Right handed pitcher.

Pitcher in stretch comes to the set position. Looks toward the base runner, (head turn only). Lifts his Pivot foot, straight up in the air as High as he can, (like a lefty pitcher would do with his free foot before deciding home or first base) then steps off and quickly spins to see what runner is doing.

Now I balked this, I said and still believe this particular fact, the pitcher did this action for the sole purpose of decieving the runner. I also believed at the split second, but am waivering now that the move is {"mimicing"} a motion naturally associated with a pitch.

Has anyone else ever seen this, is it a balk? What are your thoughts??

[cbfoulds]

Not many pitchers begin their motion by lifting their PIVOT foot.
Was there any other rule you thought this violated?
O/W, I'm having a hard time seeing a balk.
Don't care that he "did it to decieve...": that ain't illegal, much less a balk.
Just 'cause it's ugly doesn't make it a balk.

[Dave Hensley]

I'm OK with the balk call here. It's sort of akin to the pitcher who legally disengages but raises his hands in a windup-simulation to achieve a similar kind of deception.

[mbyron]

I dunno: from the description, the only thing he did was step off in a weird way. If nothing else was moving and simulating the start of a pitch, if ALL he did was lift his pivot foot up high in the process of stepping off, then I don't see a balk.

The rules don't say how a pitcher has to step off. Deception per se is not against the rules. Only illegal deception is, so I'd have to hear what else he did that was illegal before I'd think there was a balk here.

[DG]

I have never seen this one before, but I am pretty sure I would not balk it. He stepped off, it was just a high step.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I'm OK with the balk call here. It's sort of akin to the pitcher who legally disengages but raises his hands in a windup-simulation to achieve a similar kind of deception.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Pivot foot comes up and backwards, correct?? He can pick his nose, do whatever, I see this as disengagement of rubber, everyone else should also. When I played, we always watched the feet of F1, if that right heel lifted, pick-off was coming

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I'm OK with the balk call here. It's sort of akin to the pitcher who legally disengages but raises his hands in a windup-simulation to achieve a similar kind of deception.

I'm with you here Dave. Same sitch today during playoffs. Pitcher seemed confused and lifted PIVOT foot but brought his hands up to simulate pitch, I balked him. No complaint from Dcoach.

[Kaliix]

The description in 8.01 (b) says the pitcher may "...step backward off the pitchers plate with his pivot foot."

Bringing the pivot foot up is NOT stepping backward off the pitchers plate. Additionally, since the pivot foot has now disengaged, you could argue that he is making a motion naturally associated with his pitch.

In any event, it seems like a balk to me.

[Kaliix]

Has a pitcher do that very thing the other day. Balk!

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I'm OK with the balk call here. It's sort of akin to the pitcher who legally disengages but raises his hands in a windup-simulation to achieve a similar kind of deception.

[Matthew F]

Originally posted by Kaliix
The description in 8.01 (b) says the pitcher may "...step backward off the pitchers plate with his pivot foot."

Bringing the pivot foot up is NOT stepping backward off the pitchers plate. Additionally, since the pivot foot has now disengaged, you could argue that he is making a motion naturally associated with his pitch.

In any event, it seems like a balk to me.

I see some grey area here and we also have some varying opinions, so I'm going to play devil's advocate..

The pivot foot must be lifted up (direction) before it goes back (direction), else how would a pitcher get his/her foot out of the hole in front of the rubber to the area behind the rubber?

So... to what degree of lifting the pivot foot do you allow before moving the foot back? 1 inch? 1 foot? Does speed of the disengagement factor in?

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by 3appleshigh
This is probably a HTBT, but here is what i have.

R1 - Right handed pitcher.

Pitcher in stretch comes to the set position. Looks toward the base runner, (head turn only). Lifts his Pivot foot, straight up in the air as High as he can, (like a lefty pitcher would do with his free foot before deciding home or first base) then steps off and quickly spins to see what runner is doing.

Now I balked this, I said and still believe this particular fact, the pitcher did this action for the sole purpose of decieving the runner. I also believed at the split second, but am waivering now that the move is {"mimicing"} a motion naturally associated with a pitch.

Has anyone else ever seen this, is it a balk? What are your thoughts??

When you say lifts pivot foot "like a lefty pitcher would do" are you saying the pivot foot went towards 3b? If so, that is not a step back, balk.

[3appleshigh]

no the lift was straight up, knee to chest almost then back off the ound, I'm still arguing with myself on this one. Not sure what I'd do where I to see it again.

[mcrowder]

If you don't know what rule he violated, how can you call it a balk? Sounds like a nothing to me.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by mcrowder
If you don't know what rule he violated, how can you call it a balk? Sounds like a nothing to me.

A wise man once told me: if you can't describe how/why F1 balked, USING THE WORDS OF THE ACTUAL RULE, you are probably better off not calling it, 'cause it probably was NOT a balk.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I'm OK with the balk call here. It's sort of akin to the pitcher who legally disengages but raises his hands in a windup-simulation to achieve a similar kind of deception.

This pitcher has done nothing illegal except telegraph that he must step backward with his pivot foot (which I assume he eventually did). It sounds amongst the worst pickoff moves ever made. Are we now to put parameters on how high or how low his pivot foot must rise in order to step backward off the rubber?

This is not the same as making a motion associated with his pitch---whether on or off the rubber.
A pitcher does not raise his pivot foot from the set position to make a pitch.

If a runner is deceived by such a LEGAL but terrible move, then he deserves to be out and his basecoach banished from the team.

NOW.......if the pitcher picks up his pivot foot and simultaneously spins to the base on his nonpivot foot, then it's a simple balk to call.

Sometimes ugly is merely ugly........but ugly doesn't mean it's illegal.......


Just my opinion,

Freix