Dropped strike three

[mcrowder]

I kind of agree with Garth and Tee as well.

My point was that we are not there to direct either team. Whatever your NORMAL mechanic on strike three, DON'T change it between a normal D3K and a D3K with someone on first. Use the exact same mechanic for both. If it's "Strike Three!" or just your strike signal. Do that. If you yell Batter Out when a batter is out, then do that, but don't yell it again and again when you see a retired batter running.

Changing things up alerts one team or the other inappropriately.

[Kaliix]

I too, never say "batter's out". The only thing I do differently on a dropped third strike where a batter can, by rule, run to first, is to not make the out signal. I purposefully do not use the closed fist to signal strikes. To me, that signals an out. A strike is a point of the hand in some manner. This avoids confusion on the dropped third strike.

Assuming first base is open or two are out, if the dropped third strike is looking, I'll verbalize strike and point. If it's swinging, I'll just point.

I had the defense throw the ball away this weekend on a dropped third strike with first base occupied and 1 out. The coach asked me about the rule and I had to explain it to him. Oyyy! No wonder the kid's didn't know...

[thumpferee]

If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike and it's caught by the catcher, do you not signal and vocalize the batter out?

I signal and vocalize that the batter is out. If it is dropped and the runner cannot advance to 1st by rule, I will vocalize that the batter is out.

To each his own.

I thought it is our job to call fair/foul, balls/strikes, safes/outs.

Why would you not call an out when you have one?

6.05
A batter is out when_ (b) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher;
(c) A third strike is not caught by the catcher when first base is occupied before two are out;

JMO

[mcrowder]

Kaliix, I can identify.

Couple of weeks ago, 2 outs, bases loaded, D3K gets away, F2 picks it up and touches home. Out. Inning over.

Couple of innings later, the other team batting this time, 2 outs, Runner on 2nd only. D3K. Coach is yelling "Touch Home Plate!!! Touch Home Plate!!!", so catcher touches home plate. Of course, I make no signal at all, play evolves and R1 ends up on third, with BR at 2nd. Coach calls time and rips me for not giving him an out when her catcher touched the plate, when just two innings ago I'd called his team out in "exactly the same situation". This included such nonsense as him jumping up and down on the plate (reducing this man to "The artist formerly known as Head Coach") and, "How can you stand there at home and make no call!"

[scyguy]

wow MC how do you deal with coaches that are that stupid. So with bases juiced, he could not understand the force at the plate? No force with only R2. I bet you are thinking "what an idiot", while he was doing his jumping routine.

I do FED games and I am often surprised by coaches that ask questions about re-entry, batting order, etc. Isn't it important to them to understand the rules of the game they are trying to coach??

[Tim C]

"If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike and it's caught by the catcher, do you not signal and vocalize the batter out?"

I signal the strike just as I did the first and second strike. If it is a called third it is more demonstartive but means the same thing.

No, I have never said, "Batter's Out"

Weak kneed analogy:

If I am a BU and the Batter-runner is out by ten feet I have never said, "He's Out!" or "Out" that is a given -- I simply signal the out.

I am not sure this fits with what we are talking about but IT IS another time that you do not verbalize the out.

[thumpferee]

"If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike and it's caught by the catcher, do you not signal and vocalize the batter out?"

I signal the strike just as I did the first and second strike. If it is a called third it is more demonstartive but means the same thing.

No, I have never said, "Batter's Out"

Weak kneed analogy:

If I am a BU and the Batter-runner is out by ten feet I have never said, "He's Out!" or "Out" that is a given -- I simply signal the out.

I am not sure this fits with what we are talking about but IT IS another time that you do not verbalize the out.
[/QUOTE]

The difference is, IMO, everyone in the world knows he is out by ten feet.

The same with a caught line drive and runner is going on the pitch, throw to the base, easy DP. No need to vocalize.

I see your point, but I feel it is different when so many things are happening in a split second. Batter swings misses, catcher drops the ball, runners take off, BR takes off, coaches are screaming, etc.

The batter is out, call him out!

Just to further try and prove a point, lol, when a runner passes another, do you not call that runner out and identify him?

Or, would you just signal an out and let the runners continue their escapade around the bases and have the defense figure out which one they need to tag?

Not to mention your partners confusion!

Is there no set mechanic for this situation?

[JJ]

If strike three is dropped and the batter starts to run, I will yell "the batter's out, the batter's out" no matter what level of ball I do (and all I do is College and Independent Pro). It solves more potential problems than it can lead to if nothing is said.

[aevans410]

Lets look at the other side of the coin. 1-1 count, 1 out, runners on first and second. Batter swings at a ball in the dirt that gets by the catcher. R2 and R1 now move up and become R3 and R2. Counts now 1-2. He swings at another ball in the dirt. You now say "Strike 3, batters out" batter hearing this, he stops running, the catcher tags him easily. Now the O coach is climbing in your a$$ because your actions put his runner in jeopardy.

Make the players and coaches responsible for knowing the rules. Everyone on that field should know that he can't run when there are less than 2 outs and first base is occupied.

[mcrowder]

JJ, if you do that level ball, then surely you've seen plays where BR runs on the dropped 3rd, and the other runners try to move up. You're additional commentary tells defense what to do - which is not your job. Hell, you might as well yell, "Get him at third, catcher!!!" while you're at it.

Call the game. Officiate the game. Don't EFFECT the game.

[Kaliix]

If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike, I signal a strike/out by a closed fist. No need to say anything, everyone knows he's out. If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike and the catcher drops the ball (and the batter can run), I vocalize the strike but with a point signal, not a fist, as the batter needs to be put out and fist signal would be inappropriate.

It's the same reason I don't say "take your base" on ball four or point. Everyone knows you get first on ball four.

The appropriate established mechanic for calling a runner out when he passes a lead runner is to point at him and call him out for passing.

As aevans410 said

Lets look at the other side of the coin. 1-1 count, 1 out, runners on first and second. Batter swings at a ball in the dirt that gets by the catcher. R2 and R1 now move up and become R3 and R2. Counts now 1-2. He swings at another ball in the dirt. You now say "Strike 3, batters out" batter hearing this, he stops running, the catcher tags him easily. Now the O coach is climbing in your a$$ because your actions put his runner in jeopardy.

It's the players job to know the rules, it's my job to officiate them.

Originally posted by thumpferee

"If a batter swings and misses the 3rd strike and it's caught by the catcher, do you not signal and vocalize the batter out?"

I signal the strike just as I did the first and second strike. If it is a called third it is more demonstartive but means the same thing.

No, I have never said, "Batter's Out"

Weak kneed analogy:

If I am a BU and the Batter-runner is out by ten feet I have never said, "He's Out!" or "Out" that is a given -- I simply signal the out.

I am not sure this fits with what we are talking about but IT IS another time that you do not verbalize the out.

The difference is, IMO, everyone in the world knows he is out by ten feet.

The same with a caught line drive and runner is going on the pitch, throw to the base, easy DP. No need to vocalize.

I see your point, but I feel it is different when so many things are happening in a split second. Batter swings misses, catcher drops the ball, runners take off, BR takes off, coaches are screaming, etc.

The batter is out, call him out!

Just to further try and prove a point, lol, when a runner passes another, do you not call that runner out and identify him?

Or, would you just signal an out and let the runners continue their escapade around the bases and have the defense figure out which one they need to tag?

Not to mention your partners confusion!

Is there no set mechanic for this situation?

[/QUOTE]

[DG]

I may not always call the batter out when he is out, such as an obvious swinging strike 3 when the catcher does catch the ball, or a popup to the pitcher, but I always call him out when he is and there is some question about it, such as dropped 3rd strike. I see this as my job to remove all doubt about a call that is not obvious. I have also never said "strike three" or "ball four", etc, I also don't say "foul ball". I use the words "strike", "ball" and "foul".

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JJ
If strike three is dropped and the batter starts to run, I will yell "the batter's out, the batter's out" no matter what level of ball I do (and all I do is College and Independent Pro). It solves more potential problems than it can lead to if nothing is said.

Agreed.

And, (I think this came up in this thread), I give the "safe" sign and some verbal (I think it's either, "the ball's down" or "no catch") if there's a question that the strike was not caught (and it's a situation where the batter can run).

[mcrowder]

DG - the reason I've been taught to say FOUL BALL instead of just FOUL is that a loud FOUL call sounds just like a loud OUT call. FOUL BALL is unmistakeable.

[PeteBooth]

]Originally posted by mcrowder

kind of agree with Garth and Tee as well.

My point was that we are not there to direct either team. Whatever your NORMAL mechanic on strike three, DON'T change it between a normal D3K and a D3K with someone on first.

There's a difference between a "Normal" strike three and an uncaught third strike. In a "Normal" strike three mechanic, everyone in the park knows it's strike three and the batter is out. No need to add insult to injury by vocalizing. The batter along with everyone else knows he/she is out.

Now the dropped third strike.

As a former player, insticts take over regardless of the situation. When you as a batter see F2 drop a third strike, instictively you start to run towards first. This happens at every age level even in the BIGS.

As an umpire IMO we should tell everyone what is going on. A simple batter is out is all that is needed. No need to go crazy but a verbalized out call is appropriate. IMO we are not "intervening" ourselves into the game.

Side Note: Papa C et al, IMO this topic would make for a good series of articles. Perhaps the topic could read Verbalization of Calls or something along those lines.


Pete Booth