Bounce and tip(?)

[tjones1]

Here's the play, which I didn't hear it tip (and neither did the base umpire).

Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen. Call?

As I said, neither my partner or I heard a tip, I just saw that it deflected off the end of the catcher's glove and went back to the screen. Catcher wasn't too happy and I probably should have ejected him for his tone/agruing the call.

[fwump]

TJ,
From your info I assume you called ball and R1 advanced on WP. If that's what you saw than stick with your call and tell F2 to cool it.

If the pitch did indeed bounce and hit the bat then you have a foul ball. But no matter, that's not what you saw...correct?

Mike

[UmpJM]

tjones,

I'm not quite sure what the question is.

One of the things I have trouble teaching my players is that it doesn't matter what really happened. What matters is what happened in the judgement of the umpire. This is a a somewhat difficult concept to comprehend, but it's pretty clear in the text and interpretations of the rules.

Sounds like this was, by rule, a "wild pitch". It may have also been a "bad call" by the umpire(s), but that's just part of the game. I suggest to my players that they simply "deal with it" and focus on the things they have the possibility of influencing.

On the other hand, if, in the umpire's judgement, the pitch bounced, hit the bat, and went back to the screen, that would be a "foul ball".

JM

[DG]

Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen. Call?

Foul ball.

[tjones1]

Originally posted by fwump
TJ,
From your info I assume you called ball and R1 advanced on WP. If that's what you saw than stick with your call and tell F2 to cool it.

If the pitch did indeed bounce and hit the bat then you have a foul ball. But no matter, that's not what you saw...correct?

Mike

Correct. I called it a ball and the coach came out to question it and asked if I would get some help from my partner. So I called time and went and asked him. He said he didn't hear anything. So it stood, ball and the runner advanced. I very well could have missed the tip, I'm not saying I didn't. But what I had was there was no tip. Whenever the coach was talking to me about it, he asked if I automatically call a pitch in the dirt a "dead ball". That's why I asked about the call ["Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen. Call?]. Didn't know exactly know what he was trying to get at -- or if there was a rule I didn't know about. I told F2: "It is highly recommended that you don't ever speak with that tone to me or any other official ever again." Thanks for the quick replies.

[DG]

Originally posted by tjones1

Correct. I called it a ball and the coach came out to question it and asked if I would get some help from my partner. So I called time and went and asked him. He said he didn't hear anything. So it stood, ball and the runner advanced. I very well could have missed the tip, I'm not saying I didn't. But what I had was there was no tip. Whenever the coach was talking to me about it, he asked if I automatically call a pitch in the dirt a "dead ball". That's why I asked about the call ["Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen. Call?]. Didn't know exactly know what he was trying to get at -- or if there was a rule I didn't know about. I told F2: "It is highly recommended that you don't ever speak with that tone to me or any other official ever again." Thanks for the quick replies.

You said "Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen." Did you mean it? If so, FOUL, so why you call this a ball? A FOUL ball is a dead ball. I am confused by the ruling you made.


[Edited by DG on May 4th, 2005 at 12:17 AM]

[tjones1]

Originally posted by DG

You said "Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen." Did you mean it? If so, FOUL, so why you call this a ball?

Sorry DG for being confusing, no it was not called foul. They (home team) thought it was tip, therefore foul. I called it a ball. I was just doubling checking to make sure if the ball did tip the bat it was a foul ball. As I said, the home coach thought it was a dead ball because it hit the dirt or something. I'm not too sure what the heck he was thinking.

[DG]

Originally posted by tjones1

Sorry DG for being confusing, no it was not called foul. They (home team) thought it was tip, therefore foul. I called it a ball. I was just doubling checking to make sure if the ball did tip the bat it was a foul ball. As I said, the home coach thought it was a dead ball because it hit the dirt or something. I'm not too sure what the heck he was thinking.

It should have been called foul it a pitched ball hits the bat and goes to the screen afterwards. I can not offer much advice other than call what you see or hear

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by DG
Runner on 1st. Pitch bounces in the dirt (in front of the plate) and somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen. Call?

Foul ball.

Why a foul ball? Neither umpire saw or heard the ball contact the bat: "Here's the play, which I didn't hear it tip (and neither did the base umpire)."

Bob

[tjones1]

Right, I agree. Sorry for boggling that up. Just doubling checking that is the call if it happened. As I said, I didn't hear/see it hit the bat (and neither did my partner), therefore I called it a ball. Again, thanks for hanging in there with me DG. Time to hit the sack here!

[jicecone]

Originally posted by CoachJM
tjones,

Sounds like this was, by rule, a "wild pitch". It may have also been a "bad call" by the umpire(s), but that's just part of the game. I suggest to my players that they simply "deal with it" and focus on the things they have the possibility of influencing.

JM

I don't mean this sarcasticly however, IMO, when players and coaches use the word "bad" or as so commonly used now "horrible", I take that as meaning the call didn't go their way.

Now the other team may truly believe that it was a "good call".

I think "Correct or incorrect call" is more appropriate.

[DG]

Originally posted by bluezebra

Why a foul ball? Neither umpire saw or heard the ball contact the bat: "Here's the play, which I didn't hear it tip (and neither did the base umpire)."

Bob

I just repeated what was said in the original post, ie "somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen." Based on this quote it's a foul ball.

[UmpJM]

Originally posted by jicecone

I don't mean this sarcasticly however, IMO, when players and coaches use the word "bad" or as so commonly used now "horrible", I take that as meaning the call didn't go their way.

Now the other team may truly believe that it was a "good call".

I think "Correct or incorrect call" is more appropriate.

jicecone,

I am not being sarcastic either - honestly.

I think a "bad call" is when the umpire(s) did not see what actually happened and make their ruling on the basis of that faulty perception.

Now, I've been coaching long enough to realize that perception is affected by experience, and, to an even greater degree, bias. (Reference: G.W.F. Hegel, "Phenomenology of Mind")

That is, my perception of what actually happened is affected by my desire that my team do well. In general, the umpire's perception is going to be more accurate than mine, all else being equal, especially on "close calls".

I have (perhaps grudgingly) come to hold the opinion that "umpire judgement" is an essential element of the game of baseball. I try to teach this to my players (whose perception is even more suspect than my own in many cases).

That is, under the rules of baseball, it doesn't really matter what they saw happen or what I saw happen - it only matters what the umpire saw happen. It says that right in the rules!

Besides, usually the umpires are the only people at the game who really don't care one way or another who wins the game - the players care, the coaches care, the fans care - the umpires don't. Therefore, their perception, all things being equal, is likely to be the most accurate of anyone at the game. (I've developed a sneaking suspicion that some umpires may have certain subtle biases - say towards an "out" over a "safe" or a "strike" over a "ball" - but not at the expense of one team or in favor of the other. But we'll save that discussion for another thread.)

Now I was probably a little hasty in characterizing tjones1's ruling a "bad call" - it's entirely possible that his perception that the ball did not hit the bat was accurate.

However, when my perception of what happened matches the opposing coach's perception, and the umpire saw something different, I'm reasonably confident he didn't see what really happened.

For example, in a game last Saturday when I was coaching, the opposing team's batter was called out despite the fact that he clearly beat the throw to 1B. That's what I saw ( and I wanted the runner to be out), that's what the opposing team's 1B coach saw. To me, that was a "bad call".

In my mind, an "incorrect call" is when the umpire misapplies the rules in making a call based on his judgement of what happened. I find that thinking of it this way helps me approach the "discussion" with the umpire in the proper frame of mind when I request "time" to appeal (and, possibly, protest) his ruling. It wasn't a terrible call; it wasn't the most ridiculous call I've ever seen; it was simply "incorrect" (at least I believe it was). Hey, everybody makes mistakes. I do. Maybe the umpire did in this case.

So, that's how I think of it.

JM

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by DG

I just repeated what was said in the original post, ie "somehow bounces over and hits the bat and goes back to the screen." Based on this quote it's a foul ball.

Yes, but he qualified that with, "Here's the play, which I didn't hear it tip (and neither did the base umpire)." In the first part, he just ASSUMED the ball hit the bat. Since neither he or his partner saw or heard it hit, LIVE BALL.

Bob

[jicecone]

Originally posted by CoachJM

jicecone,

I am not being sarcastic either - honestly.

I think a "bad call" is when the umpire(s) did not see what actually happened and make their ruling on the basis of that faulty perception.

Now, I've been coaching long enough to realize that perception is affected by experience, and, to an even greater degree, bias. (Reference: G.W.F. Hegel, "Phenomenology of Mind")

That is, my perception of what actually happened is affected by my desire that my team do well. In general, the umpire's perception is going to be more accurate than mine, all else being equal, especially on "close calls".

I have (perhaps grudgingly) come to hold the opinion that "umpire judgement" is an essential element of the game of baseball. I try to teach this to my players (whose perception is even more suspect than my own in many cases).

That is, under the rules of baseball, it doesn't really matter what they saw happen or what I saw happen - it only matters what the umpire saw happen. It says that right in the rules!

Besides, usually the umpires are the only people at the game who really don't care one way or another who wins the game - the players care, the coaches care, the fans care - the umpires don't. Therefore, their perception, all things being equal, is likely to be the most accurate of anyone at the game. (I've developed a sneaking suspicion that some umpires may have certain subtle biases - say towards an "out" over a "safe" or a "strike" over a "ball" - but not at the expense of one team or in favor of the other. But we'll save that discussion for another thread.)

Now I was probably a little hasty in characterizing tjones1's ruling a "bad call" - it's entirely possible that his perception that the ball did not hit the bat was accurate.

However, when my perception of what happened matches the opposing coach's perception, and the umpire saw something different, I'm reasonably confident he didn't see what really happened.

For example, in a game last Saturday when I was coaching, the opposing team's batter was called out despite the fact that he clearly beat the throw to 1B. That's what I saw ( and I wanted the runner to be out), that's what the opposing team's 1B coach saw. To me, that was a "bad call".

In my mind, an "incorrect call" is when the umpire misapplies the rules in making a call based on his judgement of what happened. I find that thinking of it this way helps me approach the "discussion" with the umpire in the proper frame of mind when I request "time" to appeal (and, possibly, protest) his ruling. It wasn't a terrible call; it wasn't the most ridiculous call I've ever seen; it was simply "incorrect" (at least I believe it was). Hey, everybody makes mistakes. I do. Maybe the umpire did in this case.

So, that's how I think of it.

JM

OK OK, and don't take this seriouly either because your imput here is important. However, based upon your reply and others I have read, I would have to throw you out of the game when I see you starting to come out of the dugout for two reasons:

1. We wouldn't have time to conduct a full discussion.

2. You would probably win the discussion anyway.

Have a good day.