Ejection

[SMEngmann]

I don't get what's wrong with asking, not demanding, an umpire to clean the rubber if the runner cannot see it from first. I can understand where the second part of this incident is inappropriate, but I don't see how a simple question to ask the umpire to have the rubber cleaned is a strike against ejection. What if the runner, rather than the coach made the same request, is that tantamount to a first strike for an ejection? What if the catcher dusts dirt off the plate with his glove, do you consider that action showing up the plate umpire to the point that it is a strike toward ejection? By this logic, you would be ejecting catchers simply for dusting off the plate with their gloves and holding a close pitch for too long after receiving it. That being said, who would you rather have talk to you to bring up a question, the players or the coaches? I can buy the argument that bringing up a previous play warrants an ejection (although I think the manner in which it is brought up has a lot to do with whether a warning or an ejection should be issued), I simply do not buy the "straw that broke the camel's back" theory, with the first straw being a question about dusting off the rubber and the last being a request to be referred to as coach, rather than by a first name. Neither of these acts, even combined, warrant an ejection in my opinion, although I concede that bringing up a previous inning's play could warrant an ejection here.

[blarson]

Originally posted by DG
I see nothing to justify an ejection. The guy had a burr under his saddle. Contary to popular opinion here, I treat all coaches, assistant or otherwise, as people. I will be happy to have a serious discussion with an assistant or a head coach, makes no difference to me. But the head coach better arrive soon, if I am having a discussion with an assistant because tossing an assistant will be an easy decision. But in this case, as described, I would have ignored you.

You missed the part of the discussion were the call was already discussed the the head coach. You don't have the conversation more then once.

Also I'm sorry but arguing the call and then telling me to dust off the pitchers plate? That's blatently trying to show you up. I'd have had my first warning on that already.

Bob

[SMEngmann]

Blarson, you got the sequence wrong, a couple of innings before, I asked the umpire to dust off the pitcher's plate on the behalf of my runner who could not see it (which, by the way, the other team had done earlier in the game). In both instances the pitcher for each team was sportsmanlike enough to dust off the pitcher's plate. The events did not happen as they are interpreted here, I simply asked, did not demand, that the pitcher's plate be cleaned, and I was effectively told to shut up. I did bring up a play the previous inning, and for that I was wrong, but I did so in a manner in which nobody but me and the umpire could hear or see the conversation, and I was given the stop sign by the umpire, which I feel was the correct call, although I concede after reading some posts that this could have been an ejectable offense. After the stop sign, given the abrasive attitude that I felt the umpire had toward me (seemed to me like he was getting personal), I asked him, not demanded of him, to be called coach for the duration of the game for the purpose of bringing professionalism back to the game, which I felt was lost. For this, he threw me out of the game.

[blarson]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
Blarson, you got the sequence wrong, a couple of innings before, I asked the umpire to dust off the pitcher's plate on the behalf of my runner who could not see it (which, by the way, the other team had done earlier in the game). In both instances the pitcher for each team was sportsmanlike enough to dust off the pitcher's plate. The events did not happen as they are interpreted here, I simply asked, did not demand, that the pitcher's plate be cleaned, and I was effectively told to shut up. I did bring up a play the previous inning, and for that I was wrong, but I did so in a manner in which nobody but me and the umpire could hear or see the conversation, and I was given the stop sign by the umpire, which I feel was the correct call, although I concede after reading some posts that this could have been an ejectable offense. After the stop sign, given the abrasive attitude that I felt the umpire had toward me (seemed to me like he was getting personal), I asked him, not demanded of him, to be called coach for the duration of the game for the purpose of bringing professionalism back to the game, which I felt was lost. For this, he threw me out of the game.

I misinterpreted this part.

[/B] I ask if his foot was on the rubber, and then ask for the rubber to be dusted off[/B]

I interpreted that as to trying to argue a balk. Then requesting the dust. The request of the dust off could be intpreted as a show up. As for calling you coach being professional, actually the professional thing to do is the get the managers first names and refer to them by it. I know because this is something that I don't do well enough. I'm terrible w/ names. I think this may have just come off as being another barb even if that wasn't your intent.

It would be interesting to read the ejection report to have both sides.

Bob

[DG]

Originally posted by blarson

You missed the part of the discussion were the call was already discussed the the head coach. You don't have the conversation more then once.

Also I'm sorry but arguing the call and then telling me to dust off the pitchers plate? That's blatently trying to show you up. I'd have had my first warning on that already.

Bob

The original post did not identify the "other coach" as the head coach. That is the assumption being made by all here, just becaue the guy that started this post was coaching 1B. But as I said before, "I treat all coaches, assistant or otherwise, as people." I personally think calling them by name is unprofessional, and I will not do it. The guy makes two comments and gets waxed. Way too sensitive for my tastes.

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
DG, a question to you: "Would you have dusted off the pitcher's plate when the coach asked?"

Tee

Like I said already, I would have ignored him, both times. You guys act like assistants don't exist but then you want to toss one for making two comments. If they truly don't exist, ignore them. We do see this differently. You guys need to chill a bit, you are way too sensitive.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG

Like I said already, I would have ignored him, both times. You guys act like assistants don't exist but then you want to toss one for making two comments. If they truly don't exist, ignore them. We do see this differently. You guys need to chill a bit, you are way too sensitive.

I know I never said that assistants do not exist, they have a valuable role in the game, but questioning what I do is not one of them. Assistants are their to help their team, not question what I do all day. What if there are 4 assitants on a team, am I suppose to listen to each point of view in order to run my game? If an assistant can pop off, then what do you think a player is allowed to do? There has to be one mouthpiece for a team, and if the assistant wants to run his mouth, then he needs to get assigned the job after the head coach is not availible anymore. But until then, I am only listening to one guy. It has nothing to do with being sensitive, it is not only the way it should be, but the way the rules (at least the levels that I do) make clear how the conduct is suppose to be in the game of baseball. And in the game of basketball which makes it very clear as well, assistants cannot pop off in any of the rules I do as well. Why do you think that is? For argument sake if we just focus on the FED game, it is clear that the committees do not want anyone but the head coach to speak for the team by what all sports that I do seem to say about assistants or bench personnel.

DG, if you are just going to ignore and assistant coach no matter what they say and do, that is definitely your right to do so. But when that assitant coach comes on the field and says something to you and holds up the game, tell me after that happens that you just "turned the other cheek" and ignored him, no matter what he said or did to you? When that coach calls you a name, tell me that you "looked the other way." Not if you are doing your job you are not.

Peace

[jumpmaster]

DG will learn, one day.

SMG, asking to dust off the rubber after a pick-off play is akin to questioning the call. Blue made a call that you don't agree with and cost you a runner and you immediately ask him to clean the rubber. If you did it to me, I see it as questioning my call and as an inference that I don't know what happened.

What might have been a better course to follow was on the way to your dugout between innings, cross the mound and wipe the rubber. Or have your pitcher do it. Sun Tzu once said that the "acme of skill is to win the battle without fighting". By following this course you prevent the "fight" and still accomplish the objective.

[DG]

JR - "question what I do all day", we are talking about 2 comments. Only 2. Then you dream up a hypothetical situation involving 4 assistants coming at you, which has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not going to ignore the assistant(s) no matter what they say, but in this case, you know, the one we are discussing, where only 2 relative benign comments have been made. Come on now, "can you dust off the rubber", or, "bad call" are just not comments that are going to tick me off. Tick me off and I assure you will get dumped, but these two comments will not tick me off. Call me a name and I will be as fast as Matt Dillon on the draw. I can see it now. I send in my report and I list the reasons I tossed a guy as 1) he said "can you dust off the rubber" and 2) he said "bad call". By the way, when did it become "your" game (ie "run my game")? You act as if coaches and players are there for your entertainment.

Tim - I don't know what trendy means, and I am definitely not sensitive. Sensitive is when you dump guys for something simple.

JM- what am I going to learn one day? I ain't going to take no crap from nobody, but really "can you dust off the rubber" and "bad call". Get real.

I have only tossed two guys recently. The first was a coach who ran from 3b box to near 2b where I was to argue a call. I turned around after making the call and he was in my face. GONE. The other was a pitcher who said to me after a play he tried to make at 3b, you are "f--ing kidding", GONE. Both of these were instantaneous. But "can you dust off the rubber" and "bad call" just ain't going to do it for me.

For excessive arguing over minor points, I would throw you all out. GONE.

[DG]

Like I said Tim, for excessive arguing over minor points, you are GONE. What are you doing back? You looking for a forfeit? I agree, let's get some real issues on here instead of this bull we have been discussing.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG
JR - "question what I do all day", we are talking about 2 comments. Only 2. Then you dream up a hypothetical situation involving 4 assistants coming at you, which has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not going to ignore the assistant(s) no matter what they say, but in this case, you know, the one we are discussing, where only 2 relative benign comments have been made. Come on now, "can you dust off the rubber", or, "bad call" are just not comments that are going to tick me off. Tick me off and I assure you will get dumped, but these two comments will not tick me off. Call me a name and I will be as fast as Matt Dillon on the draw. I can see it now. I send in my report and I list the reasons I tossed a guy as 1) he said "can you dust off the rubber" and 2) he said "bad call". By the way, when did it become "your" game (ie "run my game")? You act as if coaches and players are there for your entertainment.

You made the claim that assitants were invisible, I did not say that. Then you said you would just ignore them. All I said, is how are you going to ignore assistants when in many cases there is more than one. It is not uncommon to have a close play and to be bombarded by 2 or 3 coaches. That is not a hypothetical, that has happen. It happen to me this week as a matter of fact. And if you think that is a minor point, I just want you to argue with 3 coaches and tell me how you will handle it. And I do work at many schools where 4 assistants is not completely out of the question. Sometimes the HC is not even on the field at all. The other comments just fueled the fire. But I know I am not dusting off any rubber and I am only going to tolerate so much lip from an assistant. Maybe that in itself was not an ejection, but it sure would be addressed and quickly at that.

To add to this, then you are going to allow a coach to continue a conversation that has already ended?

For me this is not about what level you do or do not do. But if you allow that kind of behavior, the other coach is going to lose respect for you, your partner might lose respect for you and your game just has every signs of going in the crapper. Because the next disputed call is going to get a even bigger response from a player, coach and possibly it will not be you that takes the heat. It might be your partner on a call he makes and takes the heat. And if you did that we would definitely have a talk after the game.

If you allow that, a spark might turn into an inferno.

Just one man's opinion, you have every right to do what you do in your games.

Peace

[DG]

Obviously, I shortened "I let him know that I thought the call was horrible because of the injury risk to the 2nd baseman" to "bad call". You forfeit also.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG
Like I said Tim, for excessive arguing over minor points, you are GONE. What are you doing back? You looking for a forfeit? I agree, let's get some real issues on here instead of this bull we have been discussing.

Oh sure, call Tim sensitive for providing what is the only sensiBLE way to handle this.

I acknowledge 1B coaches. I will say hi to them, ask them when their season is over, etc. But I don't discuss calls with them if they are not the head coach and I'm not sure I've ever seen a head coach working the 1B box.

I was working a college game yesterday and I made an out call on a very, very close play at first base. Here comes the first base coach into the outfield between innings looking to "discuss" the call I made three batters ago. I was kind and sensitive enough to pretend he wasn't there and keep walking deeper into the outfield grass, but he was on thin ice even heading to the outfield. Once I got far enough away, I turned around and he was still looking in my direction, walking away. I smiled and shrugged. Had he followed me into the outfield, he likely would've gotten ejected.

I had a basketball coach pull this co-coach nonsense on me earlier this season. I reminded him that he may claim to be a co-coach, but the only one I'm treating like a head coach is the guy using the box.

Forgive me for sounding like an a$$, but I'm not terribly interested in a coach's opinion on a judgment call. I'll let the head coach give a little opinion, because custom and tradition dictate that I do so. I've seen umpires that were more than happy to talk with all coaches about every possible thing, including the color of the sky and also happily appealing to their partner on every judgment call a coach didn't like. I simply won't do that, but because of umpires like you, I'm a bad guy. To heck with it -- I simply don't care.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Apr 9th, 2004 at 10:52 PM]

[DG]

JR - I don't know how I can say this any clearer. I am not talking about what happened to you this week, or what might happen if several assistants came at you or me with arguments. I am talking about THE ORIGINAL POST, the one where only TWO comments were made. IN MY OPINION, the comments were benign and the correct thing to do is ignore whomever made them, assistants or head. You guys simply do not get it. THIS CASE, not a hypothecical one, or something that happened this week, THIS CASE. THAT IS MY OPINION and the way I would handle THIS CASE. I apologize for shouting but YOU JUST ARE NOT LISTENING.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DG
JR - I don't know how I can say this any clearer. I am not talking about what happened to you this week, or what might happen if several assistants came at you or me with arguments. I am talking about THE ORIGINAL POST, the one where only TWO comments were made. IN MY OPINION, the comments were benign and the correct thing to do is ignore whomever made them, assistants or head. You guys simply do not get it. THIS CASE, not a hypothecical one, or something that happened this week, THIS CASE. THAT IS MY OPINION and the way I would handle THIS CASE. I apologize for shouting but YOU JUST ARE NOT LISTENING.

We're listening. We just think you're wrong. Way wrong.

You cannot let an assistant coach bring up a call that was already discussed and then call such a call "horrible." Just that is something that deserves an ejection.