Fake Tags

[parrothead]

Little League Greenbook - Been seeing a lot of fake tags in our league, I know in LL a fake tag is defined as obstruction, but if the fake is someone ball faking the runner going back into the bag and there is no overthrow, etc that the fake kept the runner at a base when he could of advanced. Whats the penalty?

Its not good baseball, I know in NFHS from my HS coaching days it was a violation as well, which umps would usually give a warning and that was that and most HS coaches kind of knew the unwritten rules in the game about fake tags, but in LL not so much.

So are there any bases awarded for the fake tag obstruction if runner is simply returning to a base?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by parrothead

little league greenbook - been seeing a lot of fake tags in our league, i know in ll a fake tag is defined as obstruction, but if the fake is someone ball faking the runner going back into the bag and there is no overthrow, etc that the fake kept the runner at a base when he could of advanced. Whats the penalty? a fake throw isn't a fake tag. A fake throw is legal

its not good baseball, i know in nfhs from my hs coaching days it was a violation as well, which umps would usually give a warning and that was that and most hs coaches kind of knew the unwritten rules ?????? in the game about fake tags, but in ll not so much.

So are there any bases awarded for the fake tag obstruction if runner is simply returning to a base? yes. (do you see any exceptions on the rules?)

. . . . . . ..

[parrothead]

Thanks Rich
- they are not fake throwing, they are fake tagging, like acting as if they caught the ball slapping glove and going to put tag on without a ball.

- typically back into 3B or back into 2B. So you are saying the umpire should be awarding them 3B or home in these instances? Because my thought was obstruction was awarding base they would have made it to if there was no obstruction, so now sure how this turns into awarding a base ahead when runner was returning to a base.

Had a rundown play our runner was returning to 3B caught between home and 3B, player didnt get out of the way, they made contact going back to 3B, umpire put the runner back at 3B, not home. Was this wrong?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

Had a rundown play our runner was returning to 3B caught between home and 3B, player didnt get out of the way, they made contact going back to 3B, umpire put the runner back at 3B, not home. Was this wrong?

Yes, this was wrong. A play was being made on the runner and so the minimum award is one base. (If no play is being made on the runner, then the umpire just awards "what would have happened" -- which might mean no award).

I'll leave it to the LL experts on whether a fake tag requires an award.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, this was wrong. A play was being made on the runner and so the minimum award is one base. (If no play is being made on the runner, then the umpire just awards "what would have happened" -- which might mean no award).

I'll leave it to the LL experts on whether a fake tag requires an award.

LL: Fake tag is obstruction. Obstruction gets the award.

[ilyazhito]

Fake tag = obstruction, per LL rule. Since this is Type 1 obstruction (obstruction with a play), the minimum award is 1 base beyond the last one legally occupied. The runner should have scored.

[parrothead]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

LL: Fake tag is obstruction. Obstruction gets the award.

So this came up again this weekend (Little League rules). We had runners at 2B and 3B, pitcher uncorks a wild pitch, runner from 3B scores easy and the ball is not secured yet from catcher my runner takes a turn, and 3B fake tags him without ball.

Would he of scored? No
Was I going to send him? Likely not

Our umpire in chief who is a good ump and seems to know the rules and said to me "I appreciate you knowing the rule, but since he was not going to score without the obstruction, I cant give him home"

I then asked, if he was ball faked can I just send him home and if he gets thrown out because of obstruction would he be awarded the base or returned to 3b? He said No, if deemed that obstruction didnt cause him to be out, he would be called out.

Which I was always under the belief that obstruction that occurs on the player the play is being made upon is awarded the base without judgement and the judgement comes more into obstruction made against runners who the play is not being made on?

Help...

[bob jenkins]

Since no play was being made on the runner, there's no minimum award. And if you send him and he's out by "more" than the OBS slowed him down, he's still out.

[parrothead]

But if I just wheel him after the ball fake and with reasonable idea that he might make it because they still dont even have the ball (would be risky) but then arent they making a play on him at the plate?

I realize the gray area of "intentional" but to me, in that scenario we have all seen the 3B in the clouds standing on the base or wherever that is "in the way" and obstructing, but since the runner isnt going home - no biggie, but what if he were to intentionally grab his shirt? yes, he likely was not gonna score so thats OK?

Fake tags are intentional obstruction to me honestly the same as grabbing and holding a guys shirt. Both of which I guess are fine so long as he was not gonna score anyway.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by parrothead

But if I just wheel him after the ball fake and with reasonable idea that he might make it because they still dont even have the ball (would be risky) but then arent they making a play on him at the plate?

It's whether a play is being made at the time of the OBS; not whether there's a play made eventually.

And, if it's close at the plate, the runner might be awarded home -- but that's umpire judgment.