Sweep tags @ 1B on errant throws.

[IRISHMAFIA]

One thing I will never understand with ASA's solution for a errant throw with a possible swipe tag. It is completely the opposite of the "90 degree" theory.

On a swipe tag at 1B, ASA has the base umpire moving toward the line. I move toward the infield to see actual contact.

Thoughts?

BTW, assume no help from PU.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I believe the issue is where and how the tag is expected to be applied.

From the defined mechanic, it would seem the expected tag is perpendicular to the base line; the BR to head more to foul territory, and the F3 reaching from fair to foul. By getting closer to the line, BU has closer to a 90 on that play. (That is also the angle where you would get the most help from PU.) Moving into the infield may straight line you on that tag, with F3 between you and the tag.

However, many swipe tags bring F3 up the line toward home, and then the swipe may be behind them, with the runner having passed F3. In that case, moving toward the line makes the tag a straight line, and also removes the angle (closing toward 0/180 degrees) determining if the tag happened before the BR touched the base. In those plays, moving toward the infield provides the 90 to the tag, and maintains an angle on the base. And, that play has very little chance of help from PU, who is now straight lined.

I was taught to read and react, that neither solution was 100%. Again, your primary reaction picks up the play without help, while the primary ASA mechanic focuses on the play where you would likely get help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I believe the issue is where and how the tag is expected to be applied.

From the defined mechanic, it would seem the expected tag is perpendicular to the base line; the BR to head more to foul territory, and the F3 reaching from fair to foul. By getting closer to the line, BU has closer to a 90 on that play. (That is also the angle where you would get the most help from PU.) Moving into the infield may straight line you on that tag, with F3 between you and the tag.

However, many swipe tags bring F3 up the line toward home, and then the swipe may be behind them, with the runner having passed F3. In that case, moving toward the line makes the tag a straight line, and also removes the angle (closing toward 0/180 degrees) determining if the tag happened before the BR touched the base. In those plays, moving toward the infield provides the 90 to the tag, and maintains an angle on the base. And, that play has very little chance of help from PU, who is now straight lined.

I was taught to read and react, that neither solution was 100%. Again, your primary reaction picks up the play without help, while the primary ASA mechanic focuses on the play where you would likely get help.

Don't disagree. When you see the DVD, if you haven't already, the play is as you described, up the line with a swipe to the runner's backside.

Even in the book, it tells us to move toward the line which is where my concern comes in. Like you note, there is no given way and I think that if they are not going to make that distinction, they shouldn't put anything into print.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I haven't seen the DVD; when I was told at the Council meeting that it would be given to all registrants at the UIC Clinic, I decided to wait for that, rather than pay again.

I know what's been in the book; many years ago I asked both Billy P. and Henry the same question.

Henry came back with the standard response; we have to teach a single mechanic to the 40,000 umpires to make a standard reaction, and we believe the majority of plays are better handled with that mechanic.

Billy P. preached "advanced mechanics for advanced umpires", similar to the current NCAA approach; he told me that an advanced umpire (not following the ASA one mechanic for all) would read the play, and get the 90 for the play that actually developed as the first priority.

Personally, I am willing to take the hit if told I used the wrong mechanic if the result is a better position to make a more accurate call on an individual play. I nod, say something like "I will keep that in mind next time that play happens", and move on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Henry came back with the standard response; we have to teach a single mechanic to the 40,000 umpires to make a standard reaction, and we believe the majority of plays are better handled with that mechanic.

Yep, we've all heard that one a few times. I guess I just don't think this one is that hard.

Billy P. preached "advanced mechanics for advanced umpires", similar to the current NCAA approach; he told me that an advanced umpire (not following the ASA one mechanic for all) would read the play, and get the 90 for the play that actually developed as the first priority.

Personally, I am willing to take the hit if told I used the wrong mechanic if the result is a better position to make a more accurate call on an individual play. I nod, say something like "I will keep that in mind next time that play happens", and move on.

I agree, been there.

[NCASAUmp]

I've not seen the DVD, either, but I've always been taught 90 degrees to the tag. If I think that the closest I can get towards a good 90 is by moving into the infield, then that's what I'm doing. That was the emphasis at our NUS last year, and I have the feeling it's going to be the emphasis for quite a while. If someone wants to ding me for it on an eval, at least I have something backing me up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've not seen the DVD, either, but I've always been taught 90 degrees to the tag. If I think that the closest I can get towards a good 90 is by moving into the infield, then that's what I'm doing. That was the emphasis at our NUS last year, and I have the feeling it's going to be the emphasis for quite a while. If someone wants to ding me for it on an eval, at least I have something backing me up.

That may all depend upon to whom you are speaking.

I have received reports over the past couple of years of differences among members of the staff. I've had umpires get dinged for things from the BU watching a BR hit 1B instead of watching a ball in the outfield to not mirroring all of the PU's dead ball calls. I, also, understand some students confronted the staff last year at the advanced SP camp because they were getting conflicting instruction.

[wadeintothem]

If this was home plate and I suggested the line is the best on the swipe, I am universally lampooned.

sweet irony.

Let me line up with the "to the line" folks on this one.

All things being equal, IMO the line is best on the swipe. You do sacrifice position if there ends up a play at 2B.

Moving to a 90 in the infield on a play in/from the infield or left side of the field should never be considered unless you like tasting dirt as you are waking up. Also, 90 on a swipe is simply not the best view. straight down it is the best view. That is why a lot of times we go for help on this. Logic tells us PU sees it best on the line.

Then someone will say "90!!!".


The play is developing and it looks like there will be a bad throw/ swipe situation, you can take a step or 2 back towards the line, you dont come in. Youre not going to make the 90 anyway, all your going to be is out of position on the swipe and possibly in the way.

IMO.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

If this was home plate and I suggested the line is the best on the swipe, I am universally lampooned.

sweet irony.

Let me line up with the "to the line" folks on this one.

All things being equal, IMO the line is best on the swipe. You do sacrifice position if there ends up a play at 2B.

Moving to a 90 in the infield on a play in/from the infield or left side of the field should never be considered unless you like tasting dirt as you are waking up. Also, 90 on a swipe is simply not the best view. straight down it is the best view. That is why a lot of times we go for help on this. Logic tells us PU sees it best on the line.

Then someone will say "90!!!".


The play is developing and it looks like there will be a bad throw/ swipe situation, you can take a step or 2 back towards the line, you dont come in. Youre not going to make the 90 anyway, all your going to be is out of position on the swipe and possibly in the way.

IMO.

Let me start. You will never, NEVER see the tag from a BLE position.

Again, everyone keeps talking about 90 as the be all to end all position. Well, guess what? I'm not one of them. "90" is the starting point and the good umpire adjusts from there. It will serve you well on 95+% of the plays, but those are not the calls for which an umpire is being paid.

The ONLY way you will even get a possible glimpse at a tag on the line is if the runner changes their base path on approaching the base. This is rarely, if ever, is going to happen at 1B except to avoid a collision. Even then, if runner has physically passed the fielder, you still are going to see the tag. You may think you see it, but it is more likely you heard it or reacted to the runner's reaction.

At 1B, you are more likely to see a slide to avoid a swipe tag off an errant thrown and moving to the line, from 18' you will lose some of your depth perception of the play.

BTW, your perception of the play is obviously inaccurate. An umpire isn't going to "eat dirt" since it isn't possible to be in the way of the play if the reaction is to the ball. How can an umpire move into an alternate position for an errant throw if the ball has yet to be released?

You are just digging out your long time, MLB wannabe argument for BLE positioning.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You are just digging out your long time, MLB wannabe argument for BLE positioning.

lol, maybe youre right! I gotta think about 1BL thingy for BU.

Obviously though, the line is best for viewing that play (just like 3BL position is great when the runner and catcher are lining up for the battle). It may not be the best position for BU. Thats why we do have PU!

I may not be visualizing correctly what you guys mean if you guys arent bringing a BU in towards the infield to a 90. I dont believe that is correct . Also, I didnt bring the BU all the way back to the line, I stated a step or two to get a better view of the tag.

What you seem to be advocating is the "inside in theory". I dunno Mike. I try and keep myself from getting injured. Going in on a goofy play presumably from the left side or infield is not my idea of a good time.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That may all depend upon to whom you are speaking.

I have received reports over the past couple of years of differences among members of the staff. I've had umpires get dinged for things from the BU watching a BR hit 1B instead of watching a ball in the outfield to not mirroring all of the PU's dead ball calls. I, also, understand some students confronted the staff last year at the advanced SP camp because they were getting conflicting instruction.

Well, that's certainly true, and I think the disparity between NUS staff is only going to grow wider as time goes on. Until someone puts his foot down and says, "enough of this, fix it," it's only going to get worse.

My statement wasn't meant to imply that an umpire should "find the 90" and stay there. Find the 90, and continue to let the play take you to where you can get the best angle. Silly guy...

I suppose in this sitch, it depends on where the errant throw pulls F3. If it pulls F3 towards 2B, I might go for the line. If it pulls F3 towards the outfield down the foul line, I might go for the 1B to 2B baseline.

Would it p1$$ off a UIC if I do the latter? Maybe, but two things would happen:

1 - I'd probably get the call right by SEEING the play instead of guessing.
2 - I'd have the NUS to fall back on. Would that stand? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who's ripping me a new one.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

lol, maybe youre right! I gotta think about 1BL thingy for BU.

Obviously though, the line is best for viewing that play (just like 3BL position is great when the runner and catcher are lining up for the battle). It may not be the best position for BU. Thats why we do have PU!

Even if you do, s/he is going to be behind the runner, see the glove swipe at the runner, but may still not have any depth perception as to whether the glove actually made contact with the runner.

I may not be visualizing correctly what you guys mean if you guys arent bringing a BU in towards the infield to a 90. I dont believe that is correct . Also, I didnt bring the BU all the way back to the line, I stated a step or two to get a better view of the tag.

Oversimplification. Didn't say anything about getting to a 90 or even "inside". Just stated I head in that direction to get a view of the gap between player attempting to make the tag and the runner.

What you seem to be advocating is the "inside in theory". I dunno Mike. I try and keep myself from getting injured. Going in on a goofy play presumably from the left side or infield is not my idea of a good time.

There is absolutely nothing I have posted to suggest such a thing. Too many people reading what isn't there. Steve has it right, the play dictates the umpire's action. My point is that ASA's mechanic does not take the play into consideration.

[wadeintothem]

In my post, I only advocated a step or two towards the line. As far as going in, I would not generally agree. I would agree with you and Steve, you need to be reading this play. So many things can come into play; you dont want to obstruct the runner, you dont want to get hit by the ball, you need to be able to react if a play goes to two, you need to be stationary at the proper time, and you need to see that tag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

In my post, I only advocated a step or two towards the line. As far as going in, I would not generally agree. I would agree with you and Steve, you need to be reading this play. So many things can come into play; you dont want to obstruct the runner, you dont want to get hit by the ball,

You need to put down the cane and take off those dark glasses. Tell me just how an umpire could even get in the way of a runner or hit with a thrown ball executing the mechanic suggested.

you need to be able to react if a play goes to two, you need to be stationary at the proper time, and you need to see that tag.

Glad to see you finally got the gist of the purpose of the original post.