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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 08:22pm
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Unreported/Illegal Substitute

NFHS Rules (but would also like NCAA and OBR ruling):

Situation: Davis (playing F3) is batting in the 4th spot in the lineup. Howard (playing F9) is batting in the 8th spot. The Visitor's HC notifies the PU that Lewis is batting for Davis when Davis's spot in the lineup comes up to bat in the top of the 3rd inning. The top of the 3rd inning ends and Lewis remains in the game for Davis at F3 and Davis takes Howard's position at F9. After one pitch in the bottom of the 3rd inning the Home HC informs the PU that Davis has taken Lewis's position at F9.

RULING: What say you?

MTD, Sr.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Thu Jun 15, 2017 at 08:29pm. Reason: Corrected typo.
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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 08:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Davis takes Lewis's position at F9.
I think I know the situation, but is this a typo?
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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 08:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I think I know the situation, but is this a typo?

I corrected it. LOL!

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 09:43pm
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OBR: This is easy. No one is allowed to reenter at all, so when Davis is in the game he is an illegal substitute no matter who he replaces on defense. He is removed from the game immediately 5.10

NFHS: Im a little confused. It appears from the description that Lewis and Davis are both in the game in the bottom of the 3rd, with Davis illegally reentering for Howard in right field. After one pitch, it appears Lewis leaves and someone else comes in at 1st base? Lewis and Davis occupy the same spot in the batting order, so they obviously can't both be in the game. However, if the problem wasn't noticed until after Lewis left the game, then I have nothing. Davis came in for Lewis and is playing a different position, but that would not be illegal. You have to catch the illegal substitute on defense while he is still illegal or before the first pitch to the next batter if he was involved in a play. If neither Lewis or Davis was involved in a play while they were both in the game, then there is no penalty because it wasn't noticed. 2-36-3c. 3-1

I don't have the NCAA rules handy

Please feel free to correct me, as I don't work NFHS at all, and I'm sure there are plenty here more knowledgeable than I with either OBR or fed rules.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Thu Jun 15, 2017 at 09:47pm. Reason: Premature submission
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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 09:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The Visitor's HC notifies the PU that Lewis is batting for Davis when Davis's spot in the lineup comes up to bat in the top of the 3rd inning.
And, thus, we umpires are admonished to never take a projected substitution. (NFHS 3-3-1 Projected substitutions are not allowed.)

Last edited by rcaverly; Thu Jun 15, 2017 at 09:53pm.
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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 10:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
OBR: This is easy. No one is allowed to reenter at all, so when Davis is in the game he is an illegal substitute no matter who he replaces on defense. He is removed from the game immediately 5.10

NFHS: Im a little confused. It appears from the description that Lewis and Davis are both in the game in the bottom of the 3rd, with Davis illegally reentering for Howard in right field. After one pitch, it appears Lewis leaves and someone else comes in at 1st base? Lewis and Davis occupy the same spot in the batting order, so they obviously can't both be in the game. However, if the problem wasn't noticed until after Lewis left the game, then I have nothing. Davis came in for Lewis and is playing a different position, but that would not be illegal. You have to catch the illegal substitute on defense while he is still illegal or before the first pitch to the next batter if he was involved in a play. If neither Lewis or Davis was involved in a play while they were both in the game, then there is no penalty because it wasn't noticed. 2-36-3c. 3-1

I don't have the NCAA rules handy

Please feel free to correct me, as I don't work NFHS at all, and I'm sure there are plenty here more knowledgeable than I with either OBR or fed rules.

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No where in the OP did I say that.

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 10:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
No where in the OP did I say that.

MTD, Sr.
Then something is wrong. The HomeTeam HC doesn't realize that Lewis is still in the game at 1st base? Clearly if Lewis is in the game at 1st and Davis is in right when the umpire is notified, Davis should be ejected. Howard can reenter in his batting order spot if he was a starter.

I also notice that you mention a Visiting Team HC and then a Home Team HC but do not indicate which team Davis, Lewis, and Howard are playing for. Presumably based on the beginning of the OP, they play for the visitors. So, what is the Home team HC doing telling you about Lewis? Is he declaring an illegal sub? Im still confused.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Thu Jun 15, 2017 at 11:00pm.
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Old Thu Jun 15, 2017, 11:56pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Then something is wrong. The HomeTeam HC doesn't realize that Lewis is still in the game at 1st base? Clearly if Lewis is in the game at 1st and Davis is in right when the umpire is notified, Davis should be ejected. Howard can reenter in his batting order spot if he was a starter.

I also notice that you mention a Visiting Team HC and then a Home Team HC but do not indicate which team Davis, Lewis, and Howard are playing for. Presumably based on the beginning of the OP, they play for the visitors. So, what is the Home team HC doing telling you about Lewis? Is he declaring an illegal sub? Im still confused.

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It is very simple. Just read the Situation and then issue a ruling. What happened is very straight forward.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 16, 2017, 05:39am
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All I can think is that the Home team HC got confused by the projected substitution (which wasn't allowed and shouldn't have been communicated to him). If Lewis never batted for Davis, but instead entered for Howard, then there is no violation.

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Old Fri Jun 16, 2017, 07:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NFHS Rules (but would also like NCAA and OBR ruling):

Situation: Davis (playing F3) is batting in the 4th spot in the lineup. Howard (playing F9) is batting in the 8th spot. The Visitor's HC notifies the PU that Lewis is batting for Davis when Davis's spot in the lineup comes up to bat in the top of the 3rd inning. The top of the 3rd inning ends and Lewis remains in the game for Davis at F3 and Davis takes Howard's position at F9. After one pitch in the bottom of the 3rd inning the Home HC informs the PU that Davis has taken 's Howard's position at F9.

RULING: What say you?

MTD, Sr.
FED: Assuming my correction above is correct Davis re-entered in the wrong spot in the lineup. He's removed from the game and a proper sub is put in Howard's spot. Howard can re-enter, if he's eligible.

NCAA and OBR: No reentry allowed. Remove Davis. Put an eligible sub (not Howard) as F9.
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Old Fri Jun 16, 2017, 12:19pm
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FED

A lot of assuming here, but I'll take a stab at it.

First of all, one pitch doesn't matter in the OP. Any time an illegal sub is discovered on defense he is removed and restricted. Only time a pitch comes into play is if there is a play made.

Assuming Davis has re-entry, he has re-entered in his spot in the lineup. Where he plays on defense doesn't matter.

Lewis is The illegal sub for Howard, assuming Bob is correct. Lewis is restricted and can be replaced by Howard or another eligible/legal sub.

Maybe this sitch needs to be re-written.
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Old Fri Jun 16, 2017, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpferee View Post
FED

A lot of assuming here, but I'll take a stab at it.

First of all, one pitch doesn't matter in the OP. Any time an illegal sub is discovered on defense he is removed and restricted. Only time a pitch comes into play is if there is a play made.

Assuming Davis has re-entry, he has re-entered in his spot in the lineup. Where he plays on defense doesn't matter.

Lewis is The illegal sub for Howard, assuming Bob is correct. Lewis is restricted and can be replaced by Howard or another eligible/legal sub.

Maybe this sitch needs to be re-written.
Lewis was already an accepted legal sub for Davis. Davis replaced Howard illegally on defense. Where on defense doesn't matter but who does.

A pitch would matter in OBR as it would mean play had commenced. Penalty would be 2 burned.
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Old Fri Jun 16, 2017, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpferee View Post
FED

Assuming Davis has re-entry, he has re-entered in his spot in the lineup. Where he plays on defense doesn't matter.

Lewis is The illegal sub for Howard, assuming Bob is correct. Lewis is restricted and can be replaced by Howard or another eligible/legal sub.

.
Disagree -- lewis pinch hit for Davis and remained in the game. So when Davis re-entered and Howard came out, Davis re-entered in the wrong spot.

From (an older version of) the rules book:

2-36-3 ART. 3 . . . An illegal substitute is:
a. a player who enters or re-enters the game without eligibility to do so, or
b. a player who re-enters the game in the wrong position in the batting order, or
c. a player who enters the game on defense while the player for whom he is batting is also on defense, or
d. when the player for whom the DH is batting enters the game as a batter or runner in a different position in the batting order, or
e. a player who violates the courtesy runner rule.
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2017, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Disagree -- lewis pinch hit for Davis and remained in the game. So when Davis re-entered and Howard came out, Davis re-entered in the wrong spot.

From (an older version of) the rules book:

2-36-3 ART. 3 . . . An illegal substitute is:
a. a player who enters or re-enters the game without eligibility to do so, or
b. a player who re-enters the game in the wrong position in the batting order, or
c. a player who enters the game on defense while the player for whom he is batting is also on defense, or
d. when the player for whom the DH is batting enters the game as a batter or runner in a different position in the batting order, or
e. a player who violates the courtesy runner rule.
Wouldn't "C" apply here? Seems like a perfect example for the OP.
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2017, 10:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpferee View Post
Wouldn't "C" apply here? Seems like a perfect example for the OP.
Yes, this one also. Only one needed though.
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