Home Run or Ground Rule Double????? Crap!!

[Linknblue]

Here's one that happened this weekend. Bases empty. Batter hits long fly ball. I'm BU and am breaking inside on the hit. I glance at ball and see it bounce about 4 feet high on first bounce. My first inclination is that it's a bounce over fence but I really don't know cuz it's just a glance. My partner doesn't signal HR but he doesn't call dead ball, double either. Off Coaches are yelling it's a home run and Def Coaches are yelling it hit right at base of the temp fence and went under it. My partner asks me. I give him no help cuz I simply don't know for sure. Now we're in a situation!!!

Partner asks outfielders near ball where ball landed. They tell him it went under the fence....duh! That was wrong but that's what he did. He now rules "homerun".

Of course def coach goes nuts. I get in middle separating the coach and my partner. I get him calmed down but he's still "nutz".

I'm saying we should have ruled "ground rule double" then talked about it away from everyone.....If all information changed it from double to HR, so be it.

I talked with coaches and spectators afterward and none really could tell where ball landed.......even one of the other def coaches not involved in the "fray".

What say you guys? How would you have handled this situation where neither of blue could really be sure?

By the way, temporary fences suck. You can't tell from the plate or middle infield if a ball bounces in front of the fence or just behind the fence because the fence is plastic mesh with no background. They ought to make them with at least a foot of solid material at the bottom. You're never going to install them so a ball can't go under the fence but I guess that's the nature of "temporary" fencing.

Any opinions on whether the fence should even be installed or just let'm get all they can get without a fence? We're talking enclosed fields with 275 to 300'[ fences anyway.

Thanks

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Here's one that happened this weekend. Bases empty. Batter hits long fly ball. I'm BU and am breaking inside on the hit. I glance at ball and see it bounce about 4 feet high on first bounce. My first inclination is that it's a bounce over fence but I really don't know cuz it's just a glance. My partner doesn't signal HR but he doesn't call dead ball, double either. Off Coaches are yelling it's a home run and Def Coaches are yelling it hit right at base of the temp fence and went under it. My partner asks me. I give him no help cuz I simply don't know for sure. Now we're in a situation!!!

I think you need to stop at this point, when you're in a minor situation and get it fixed as best you can. (It's soon to be a full on mess if your partner proceeds as he did.) Your partner must not have been too experienced since he called nothing on a ball sitting 15 feet past the fence so telling him "I got nothing for you" and sending him off to figure it out on his own may not have been the best approach.
I think you agree on the call before you split up and then you're going to be largely stuck with it unless somehow you find a way to get an acceptable source of more information.
My preference would be to call the coaches together and break the news to them at the same time. One's going to be happy and one is not, but that seems nicer then breaking up the conference with a signal of home run and watching the DC go nuts.

[MD Longhorn]

Agree with YU.

Also ... "Of course def coach goes nuts. I get in middle separating the coach and my partner. I get him calmed down but he's still "nutz"." This is a problem. Unless he's been tossed, you should not be in the middle here. You should be keeping everyone else away from this conversation.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Here's one that happened this weekend. Bases empty. Batter hits long fly ball. I'm BU and am breaking inside on the hit. I glance at ball and see it bounce about 4 feet high on first bounce. My first inclination is that it's a bounce over fence but I really don't know cuz it's just a glance. My partner doesn't signal HR but he doesn't call dead ball, double either. Off Coaches are yelling it's a home run and Def Coaches are yelling it hit right at base of the temp fence and went under it. My partner asks me. I give him no help cuz I simply don't know for sure. Now we're in a situation!!!

Partner asks outfielders near ball where ball landed. They tell him it went under the fence....duh! That was wrong but that's what he did. He now rules "homerun".

Of course def coach goes nuts. I get in middle separating the coach and my partner. I get him calmed down but he's still "nutz".

I'm saying we should have ruled "ground rule double" then talked about it away from everyone.....If all information changed it from double to HR, so be it.

I talked with coaches and spectators afterward and none really could tell where ball landed.......even one of the other def coaches not involved in the "fray".

What say you guys? How would you have handled this situation where neither of blue could really be sure?

By the way, temporary fences suck. You can't tell from the plate or middle infield if a ball bounces in front of the fence or just behind the fence because the fence is plastic mesh with no background. They ought to make them with at least a foot of solid material at the bottom. You're never going to install them so a ball can't go under the fence but I guess that's the nature of "temporary" fencing.

Any opinions on whether the fence should even be installed or just let'm get all they can get without a fence? We're talking enclosed fields with 275 to 300'[ fences anyway.

Thanks

I'm assuming FP here, because an enclosed permanent fence at the distance you mentioned would be appropriate for slow pitch.

When working on fields with temporary fences like as described, it may be a good idea to pregame that the BU will chase on ball hit close to the fence. I realize that it is a departure from what we would normally do in two umpire mechanics, but in situations like this, it could help tremendously. It's going to happen, because FP teams want fences set up at 200 feet. I would also suggest that if you don't chase, that you try to do more than just glance when the ball hits to be able to provide help if requested.

As to your specific situation, I would let the BR run out the HR, then get together with your partner. As BU, give him whatever you have...in your case, your thought that the ball hit in the field of play and bounced over, even though you are not 100% sure. You can always put the BR back at second base. This call belongs to your partner since you didn't chase, let him make it.

PS...this still doesn't give a coach the right to "go nuts". If the actions of the coach toward your partner are warranting you having to get between them, I'd say that coach needs to leave. In this situation, I would certainly allow coach a bit more leeway, but there is still a line that can't be crossed.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

PS...this still doesn't give a coach the right to "go nuts". If the actions of the coach toward your partner are warranting you having to get between them, I'd say that coach needs to leave. In this situation, I would certainly allow coach a bit more leeway, but there is still a line that can't be crossed.

This is an interesting point. So the coach crosses the line to the point where you think you need to get between he and your partner. But your partner hasn't tossed him. I'm not really sure what I'd do here, but I'm pretty sure it would not be to toss the guy arguing with my partner. Besides looking weird it creates a bad mechanic in terms of how we get rid of the coach. Generally, the ump who didn't throw him out can get him off the field easier, but in this case I couldn't see either umpire having much luck with that.
So I'm thinking there is a point at which I'd probably go Linknblue's route and try and get my partner some space but I've never really thought this through. Thoughts?

[Linknblue]

Clarification....

Def coach was loudly disagreeing with my partner's call....mainly because my partner asked the defense, they gave him an answer and he ruled HR anyway. Since def coach didn't like that call he was protesting and it didn't look like his argument was going anywhere except to get him tossed.

I intervened because I knew if it kept up he was going to be tossed and I really didn't think tossing was a viable option in a "blue crew" mishandling of the call. Was it the correct call? We'll never know. It was the process that the coach was upset about and he was righteously upset.

I was just being a "good cop" and trying to difuse the coach so he wouldn't get tossed......and it worked. He muttered for an inning or two but his team ended up losing by 6 or 7 runs so the run was inconsequential in the big picture.

Given that if both umpires are not sure if it was a homerun or a double.....what's the call? Do you fudge and give the HR or do you rule GR double cuz you ain't sure.

And the other is, temp fences suck. Can't they make them with a background so you can see if the ball hits in front or behind. Have other guys had these issues and what and how do they rule?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

...Given that if both umpires are not sure if it was a homerun or a double.....what's the call? Do you fudge and give the HR or do you rule GR double cuz you ain't sure...

Neither.

You make the best call you can based on the information available. From what you have said, the best information available was likely your impression that the ball hit the ground inside the fence.

[prab]

When you pay for 2 umpires, you get what 2 umpires can see. Sometimes they can't see everything. Coaches will simply have to deal with occasional situations like this without exhibiting rude, crude or socially unacceptable behavior.

[SWFLguy]

One situation where having NO fences is a plus. Worked most of my games back in CNY that way.

[MD Longhorn]

I'll say it again then...

Unless your partner was some 14-year old on his first game, you should not be getting between your partner and the coach. Period. How would you feel if your partner didn't feel you were capable of handling this coach? It's an insult to your partner that you handled things for him AND it means you weren't doing YOUR job at this time.

That said ... despite the fact that you guys might have effed up the procedure and the call, the coach doesn't have the right to go ape-shit. I admit I'd give him a tad more rope than usual in a case like this, but if he goes off the rails you have to send him packing.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Here's one that happened this weekend. Bases empty. Batter hits long fly ball. I'm BU and am breaking inside on the hit. I glance at ball and see it bounce about 4 feet high on first bounce. My first inclination is that it's a bounce over fence but I really don't know cuz it's just a glance. My partner doesn't signal HR but he doesn't call dead ball, double either. Off Coaches are yelling it's a home run and Def Coaches are yelling it hit right at base of the temp fence and went under it. My partner asks me. I give him no help cuz I simply don't know for sure. Now we're in a situation!!!

Partner asks outfielders near ball where ball landed. They tell him it went under the fence....duh! That was wrong but that's what he did. He now rules "homerun".

Of course def coach goes nuts. I get in middle separating the coach and my partner. I get him calmed down but he's still "nutz".

I'm saying we should have ruled "ground rule double" then talked about it away from everyone.....If all information changed it from double to HR, so be it.

I talked with coaches and spectators afterward and none really could tell where ball landed.......even one of the other def coaches not involved in the "fray".

What say you guys? How would you have handled this situation where neither of blue could really be sure?

By the way, temporary fences suck. You can't tell from the plate or middle infield if a ball bounces in front of the fence or just behind the fence because the fence is plastic mesh with no background. They ought to make them with at least a foot of solid material at the bottom. You're never going to install them so a ball can't go under the fence but I guess that's the nature of "temporary" fencing.

Any opinions on whether the fence should even be installed or just let'm get all they can get without a fence? We're talking enclosed fields with 275 to 300'[ fences anyway.

Thanks

I've actually had a similar situation but in a one man game. There was a temporary fence placed down the right field line for about 40 feet from the line into fair territory. The rest of the field was open. This fence was only about 2 feet high because it was partially knocked down. In front of the fence about 5 feet was a man hole cover. Behind the fence about the same distance was another man hole cover. Fly ball down into that corner. I hear the ball hit a man hole cover and it takes a high bounce. I thought it was short of the fence but the right fielder cut right in front of my view just as the ball was coming down. The defense starts screaming it hit short of the fence and bounced. I did not make a call at first, except dead ball, because I wanted to go out and see what I heard it hit. Sure enough that's when I saw the two man hole covers. I had to rule a GR double based on what I thought I was and based on the fact the noise could have come from it hitting on either side of the fence.

Now the OC is pissed and let's me know he disagrees with the call. The only good thing was the next batter hit a ball down the same line that hit the roof of the building about 40 feet behind the fence. That calmed the coach a little bit since the run still scored anyway.


Now as for your situation. Did your partner go out into the field on the fly ball? If he did, it is his call and his situation (mess) to deal with. He has to make the call and live with his decision. Your objective simply becomes to assist if asked and keep everyone else back if the coach really goes after the umpire. Based on what you describe, the coach should be been tossed, at which time then the second umpire can step in and try to get the coach to walk away.

Now for MD's comments. I was actually in the situation where my partner was a new umpire and an 18 year old girl. This was a MS aged Rec game. One of the coaches strongly disagreed with the call at the plate and was really letting my partner know about his displeasure. He was getting way closer than a coach should be getting to an umpire so I decided to step in on that and separate them. Just as I separated them, my partner did eject the coach from the game, so now I was trying to separate the ejected coach from the umpire anyway.

I do look at who I am working with if a situation arises with a pissed off coach or player and a partner. If I am working with Brian (former prison guard and about 6-7 350, I'm letting him handle it himself). If I'm working with Lisa who might be 5-0 and 100 pounds, I'm getting myself in a lot closer to the situation.

[Linknblue]

Maybe I misspoke about getting in between my partner and the coach. My partner was "done" discussing the issue and he was turning and walking away from the irate coach. I simply got in front of the "irate" coach who was still stepping toward my partner and jawing at him and I asked him to calm down and stay in the game. He was heading for a tossing and that wouldn't do him or his team any good.

The "loud" jawing stopped and the game continued. He was still muttering and griping for an inning or two but that wasn't my issue at that point, it was my partner's since that's where the muttering and griping was directed towards.

No partner was "insulted" or "demeaned" in this case. It wasn't like I ran over and got in between the initial "discussion". It was after it was for the most part, over.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I've actually had a similar situation but in a one man game. There was a temporary fence placed down the right field line for about 40 feet from the line into fair territory. The rest of the field was open. This fence was only about 2 feet high because it was partially knocked down. In front of the fence about 5 feet was a man hole cover. Behind the fence about the same distance was another man hole cover. Fly ball down into that corner. I hear the ball hit a man hole cover and it takes a high bounce. I thought it was short of the fence but the right fielder cut right in front of my view just as the ball was coming down. The defense starts screaming it hit short of the fence and bounced. I did not make a call at first, except dead ball, because I wanted to go out and see what I heard it hit. Sure enough that's when I saw the two man hole covers. I had to rule a GR double based on what I thought I was and based on the fact the noise could have come from it hitting on either side of the fence.

Now the OC is pissed and let's me know he disagrees with the call. The only good thing was the next batter hit a ball down the same line that hit the roof of the building about 40 feet behind the fence. That calmed the coach a little bit since the run still scored anyway.


Now as for your situation. Did your partner go out into the field on the fly ball? If he did, it is his call and his situation (mess) to deal with. He has to make the call and live with his decision. Your objective simply becomes to assist if asked and keep everyone else back if the coach really goes after the umpire. Based on what you describe, the coach should be been tossed, at which time then the second umpire can step in and try to get the coach to walk away.

Now for MD's comments. I was actually in the situation where my partner was a new umpire and an 18 year old girl. This was a MS aged Rec game. One of the coaches strongly disagreed with the call at the plate and was really letting my partner know about his displeasure. He was getting way closer than a coach should be getting to an umpire so I decided to step in on that and separate them. Just as I separated them, my partner did eject the coach from the game, so now I was trying to separate the ejected coach from the umpire anyway.

I do look at who I am working with if a situation arises with a pissed off coach or player and a partner. If I am working with Brian (former prison guard and about 6-7 350, I'm letting him handle it himself). If I'm working with Lisa who might be 5-0 and 100 pounds, I'm getting myself in a lot closer to the situation.

Unless you think there's a good chance of situation turning phyisical, I don't know what it matters whether it's Lisa or Brian. Physical stature rarely has much to do with how a coach deals with an umpire.

If you do think it's going to get physical, probably best to call the police.

[Robert Goodman]

Aren't most of those fences installed to separate 1 game from another?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Aren't most of those fences installed to separate 1 game from another?

Sometimes, but often because the field structure is too large, like 275 - 300 feet to fence.