Home Run or Ground Rule Double????? Crap!!

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Here's one that happened this weekend. Bases empty. Batter hits long fly ball. I'm BU and am breaking inside on the hit. I glance at ball and see it bounce about 4 feet high on first bounce. My first inclination is that it's a bounce over fence but I really don't know cuz it's just a glance. My partner doesn't signal HR but he doesn't call dead ball, double either. Off Coaches are yelling it's a home run and Def Coaches are yelling it hit right at base of the temp fence and went under it. My partner asks me. I give him no help cuz I simply don't know for sure. Now we're in a situation!!!

Partner asks outfielders near ball where ball landed. They tell him it went under the fence....duh! That was wrong but that's what he did. He now rules "homerun".

Of course def coach goes nuts. I get in middle separating the coach and my partner. I get him calmed down but he's still "nutz".

I'm saying we should have ruled "ground rule double" then talked about it away from everyone.....If all information changed it from double to HR, so be it.

I talked with coaches and spectators afterward and none really could tell where ball landed.......even one of the other def coaches not involved in the "fray".

What say you guys? How would you have handled this situation where neither of blue could really be sure?

By the way, temporary fences suck. You can't tell from the plate or middle infield if a ball bounces in front of the fence or just behind the fence because the fence is plastic mesh with no background. They ought to make them with at least a foot of solid material at the bottom. You're never going to install them so a ball can't go under the fence but I guess that's the nature of "temporary" fencing.

Any opinions on whether the fence should even be installed or just let'm get all they can get without a fence? We're talking enclosed fields with 275 to 300'[ fences anyway.

Thanks

I've actually had a similar situation but in a one man game. There was a temporary fence placed down the right field line for about 40 feet from the line into fair territory. The rest of the field was open. This fence was only about 2 feet high because it was partially knocked down. In front of the fence about 5 feet was a man hole cover. Behind the fence about the same distance was another man hole cover. Fly ball down into that corner. I hear the ball hit a man hole cover and it takes a high bounce. I thought it was short of the fence but the right fielder cut right in front of my view just as the ball was coming down. The defense starts screaming it hit short of the fence and bounced. I did not make a call at first, except dead ball, because I wanted to go out and see what I heard it hit. Sure enough that's when I saw the two man hole covers. I had to rule a GR double based on what I thought I was and based on the fact the noise could have come from it hitting on either side of the fence.

Now the OC is pissed and let's me know he disagrees with the call. The only good thing was the next batter hit a ball down the same line that hit the roof of the building about 40 feet behind the fence. That calmed the coach a little bit since the run still scored anyway.


Now as for your situation. Did your partner go out into the field on the fly ball? If he did, it is his call and his situation (mess) to deal with. He has to make the call and live with his decision. Your objective simply becomes to assist if asked and keep everyone else back if the coach really goes after the umpire. Based on what you describe, the coach should be been tossed, at which time then the second umpire can step in and try to get the coach to walk away.

Now for MD's comments. I was actually in the situation where my partner was a new umpire and an 18 year old girl. This was a MS aged Rec game. One of the coaches strongly disagreed with the call at the plate and was really letting my partner know about his displeasure. He was getting way closer than a coach should be getting to an umpire so I decided to step in on that and separate them. Just as I separated them, my partner did eject the coach from the game, so now I was trying to separate the ejected coach from the umpire anyway.

I do look at who I am working with if a situation arises with a pissed off coach or player and a partner. If I am working with Brian (former prison guard and about 6-7 350, I'm letting him handle it himself). If I'm working with Lisa who might be 5-0 and 100 pounds, I'm getting myself in a lot closer to the situation.

[Linknblue]

Maybe I misspoke about getting in between my partner and the coach. My partner was "done" discussing the issue and he was turning and walking away from the irate coach. I simply got in front of the "irate" coach who was still stepping toward my partner and jawing at him and I asked him to calm down and stay in the game. He was heading for a tossing and that wouldn't do him or his team any good.

The "loud" jawing stopped and the game continued. He was still muttering and griping for an inning or two but that wasn't my issue at that point, it was my partner's since that's where the muttering and griping was directed towards.

No partner was "insulted" or "demeaned" in this case. It wasn't like I ran over and got in between the initial "discussion". It was after it was for the most part, over.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I've actually had a similar situation but in a one man game. There was a temporary fence placed down the right field line for about 40 feet from the line into fair territory. The rest of the field was open. This fence was only about 2 feet high because it was partially knocked down. In front of the fence about 5 feet was a man hole cover. Behind the fence about the same distance was another man hole cover. Fly ball down into that corner. I hear the ball hit a man hole cover and it takes a high bounce. I thought it was short of the fence but the right fielder cut right in front of my view just as the ball was coming down. The defense starts screaming it hit short of the fence and bounced. I did not make a call at first, except dead ball, because I wanted to go out and see what I heard it hit. Sure enough that's when I saw the two man hole covers. I had to rule a GR double based on what I thought I was and based on the fact the noise could have come from it hitting on either side of the fence.

Now the OC is pissed and let's me know he disagrees with the call. The only good thing was the next batter hit a ball down the same line that hit the roof of the building about 40 feet behind the fence. That calmed the coach a little bit since the run still scored anyway.


Now as for your situation. Did your partner go out into the field on the fly ball? If he did, it is his call and his situation (mess) to deal with. He has to make the call and live with his decision. Your objective simply becomes to assist if asked and keep everyone else back if the coach really goes after the umpire. Based on what you describe, the coach should be been tossed, at which time then the second umpire can step in and try to get the coach to walk away.

Now for MD's comments. I was actually in the situation where my partner was a new umpire and an 18 year old girl. This was a MS aged Rec game. One of the coaches strongly disagreed with the call at the plate and was really letting my partner know about his displeasure. He was getting way closer than a coach should be getting to an umpire so I decided to step in on that and separate them. Just as I separated them, my partner did eject the coach from the game, so now I was trying to separate the ejected coach from the umpire anyway.

I do look at who I am working with if a situation arises with a pissed off coach or player and a partner. If I am working with Brian (former prison guard and about 6-7 350, I'm letting him handle it himself). If I'm working with Lisa who might be 5-0 and 100 pounds, I'm getting myself in a lot closer to the situation.

Unless you think there's a good chance of situation turning phyisical, I don't know what it matters whether it's Lisa or Brian. Physical stature rarely has much to do with how a coach deals with an umpire.

If you do think it's going to get physical, probably best to call the police.

[Robert Goodman]

Aren't most of those fences installed to separate 1 game from another?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Aren't most of those fences installed to separate 1 game from another?

Sometimes, but often because the field structure is too large, like 275 - 300 feet to fence.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Aren't most of those fences installed to separate 1 game from another?

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Sometimes, but often because the field structure is too large, like 275 - 300 feet to fence.

Here they are for fastpitch on a slowpitch field, or to add fences to an unfenced field.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Adam

Unless you think there's a good chance of situation turning phyisical, I don't know what it matters whether it's Lisa or Brian. Physical stature rarely has much to do with how a coach deals with an umpire.

If you do think it's going to get physical, probably best to call the police.

I am going to disagree with the idea of stature not impacting how a coach interacts with an umpire.

There is a reason that MLB had size requirements for umpires. You don't see many short umpires in MLB. The reason for the requirement was because MLB wanted the umpires to be able to stand level to level with the players and coaches during arguments. Players and coaches will most certainly attempt to tower over a smaller umpire in an argument. It is a form of intimidation. It is also a natural action in a confrontation, not even something that people consciously do. When in a confrontation nature tells a person (or animal) to make themselves appear as big as possible. This certainly does happen on the softball diamond. A large number of coaches will treat an umpire who is over 6 feet tall and 250 pounds much differently than a 5-0 umpire who weighs 100 pounds soaking wet.

[jwwashburn]

"I talked with coaches and spectators afterward and none really could tell where ball landed.......even one of the other def coaches not involved in the "fray"

You talked about this call with anyone other than your partner and/or other umpires away from fans/coaches/players? I oppose this.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I am going to disagree with the idea of stature not impacting how a coach interacts with an umpire.

There is a reason that MLB had size requirements for umpires. You don't see many short umpires in MLB. The reason for the requirement was because MLB wanted the umpires to be able to stand level to level with the players and coaches during arguments. Players and coaches will most certainly attempt to tower over a smaller umpire in an argument. It is a form of intimidation. It is also a natural action in a confrontation, not even something that people consciously do. When in a confrontation nature tells a person (or animal) to make themselves appear as big as possible. This certainly does happen on the softball diamond. A large number of coaches will treat an umpire who is over 6 feet tall and 250 pounds much differently than a 5-0 umpire who weighs 100 pounds soaking wet.

What you just said is pure unadulterated hogwash. Just keep in mind that that there are two women currently officiating in the NBA and there will be one woman officiating in the NFL.

MTD, Sr.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

There is a reason that MLB had size requirements for umpires.

Maybe in the past...though I've never heard of it documented. "Had" is the key word here.