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Old Sat May 02, 2015, 08:57pm
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Fair-Foul Question and other questions

Had another one of those strange double headers today. I'm the PU on most. HS JV with NFHS rules.

First play to discuss: R1 on 2nd, B2 hits a towering fly ball down the left field line. The ball clearly lands on the foul side of the pole, but was slicing in flight. What do other umpires do on a ball hit like this. I called it foul based on where it landed AND the projected path I had as it passed the foul pole. I am still not sure if I got it right though.

Second play: 1 out in the third innings. At the start of the half inning the OC comes out and tells me she has a substitution. #8 is going in for #21 in the 7 spot in the order. I write the substitution on my L.U. Card. and notify the home team of the change, then we begin the half inning. As the inning progresses, the #7 spot in the order comes up and #4 comes up to bat. I don't look for numbers unless something strange happens. After the first pitch, the home team coach yells out to the catcher, what number is she. "#4". That should be #8. OC coach now comes up and says she meant to say #4 in for #21, not #8. What is the proper procedure for this. I considered this an improper substitution, and make the change on my card and issue a warning to the OC.

Third play: B1 up, hits a ground ball to F4 who throws to F3 for the out. On the release of the bat, B1 lets the bat go in such a manner that it comes back striking me on the left wrist. I let play continue, then after the play go down to talk to the runner with the 1B coach standing nearby and explain she needs to control the bat after the swing and issue a warning to the team for "throwing the bat." Was this proper procedure? The coach did not see it as he was watching the bat. He assured me it wasn't intentional. I think my response was I know, had it been intentional she would not be in the lineup still.

Fourth play: Bases loaded, 1 out. The pitcher has the ball in her glove and goes to her mouth with the pitching hand, she then wipes the hand on her shirt, goes to her mouth again and immediately reaches her hand into her glove to pull the ball out before stepping on the plate. I call an immediate dead ball illegal pitch and award a ball to the batter and each runner advances 1 base. Is this correct?

Fifth play: I am the BU on this. R1 at first 2-2 count, 0 or 1 out, B2 swings and misses on a ball in the dirt. D3K situation. The PU clearly says strike three batters out. R1 takes off to 2b seeing B2 running to first. As F1 throws to 1b, PU yells dead ball and says the batter is out and puts R1 back on first base. I know this has been discussed before but what is the proper ruling under NFHS rules. I don't think this ruling is correct. We either should have nothing but an out on the batter for a D3K with 1st base occupied and a legal advance to 2b or interference by a retired batter/runner and as a result the runner closest to home is out. What is the proper ruling in HS for this play?

This was just one of those games with all sorts of strange things. WE had strange running decisions such as a runner from 3rd coming home on a walk to the batter with no one on 1st. Defense tried getting the out at the plate but overthrew the catcher from the pitchers plate. The first run of the game was bunt "home run". Bunt to F1 who overthrew F3 allowing the batter/runner to go to second. The throw to second ended up being airmailed and split the outfielders, allowing the batter-runner to come all the way around to score. We had other befuddling plays but also some great diving catches as well.

One other complaint. I wish there was a rule you had to have similar sized athletes. One team seemed to alternate their lineup between 5-10 plus and 5-1 or less batters. That changes the strike zone a lot between batters and lead to a lot of complaints. What is a strike on miss 6 foot is at the eyes of miss 4-8.

Last edited by chapmaja; Mon May 04, 2015 at 02:10pm. Reason: changed games to double heads so people could figure it out.
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Old Sat May 02, 2015, 09:48pm
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1, if you judged the ball was not on the fair side or over the top of the foul pole as the ball cleared the fence then it is a foul ball.

2, the coach gave you a substitution, it was accepted, reported and the ball was put back into play. It is an official substitution and the coach has to live with it.

3, the first thrown bat as long as it didnt interfere with the play is a team warning, second offense for anyone on the team is a restriction to the bench.

4, yes illegal pitch, ball on batter and advance base runners.

5, the defense is responsible for knowing the situation and making the appropriate play. The advance of the base runner should have stood. Nothing in the rule book calls for a dead ball and returning the runner to the prior base. Based on your description of the play there should have been no call, but if the plate umpire was going to rule interference and a dead ball, the batter is already out, the runner closest to home would be called out. But again, this is not interference.
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Old Sat May 02, 2015, 10:04pm
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Response in red and teal
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
1, if you judged the ball was not on the fair side or over the top of the foul pole as the ball cleared the fence then it is a foul ball.The issue with this isn't what a fair or foul ball is, I know the definition of a fair or foul ball. I was wondering if any umpires had any tricks to be able to get a better view of this play. The ball was hit over a fence 210 away and it was well over a 15 foot foul pole. It was high enough that you could not see if it passed the pole before curving foul or if it was foul when it reached the pole.

2, the coach gave you a substitution, it was accepted, reported and the ball was put back into play. It is an official substitution and the coach has to live with it.Ok, now what if the coach wants #4 to be in and she came to bat, took a pitch, but #8 is the player of record. Is this considered an unreported substitution because she took a pitch. Has #8, the listed player in the game, actually come into the game, because #4, an unreported substitute came to bat where #8 was in the lineup. Basically does my card look like this:
21/8/4 or does it look like this 21/4?



3, the first thrown bat as long as it didnt interfere with the play is a team warning, second offense for anyone on the team is a restriction to the bench.

4, yes illegal pitch, ball on batter and advance base runners.

5, the defense is responsible for knowing the situation and making the appropriate play. The advance of the base runner should have stood. Nothing in the rule book calls for a dead ball and returning the runner to the prior base. Based on your description of the play there should have been no call, but if the plate umpire was going to rule interference and a dead ball, the batter is already out, the runner closest to home would be called out. But again, this is not interferenceThis is what I thought. I would have ruled the batter out loudly and repeatedly if she had advanced toward first, and let the advance of R1 stand, but being the BU on the play, I had no say in the matter.
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 12:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
Had another one of those strange games today. I'm the PU on most. HS JV with NFHS rules.



Second play: 1 out in the third innings. At the start of the half inning the OC comes out and tells me she has a substitution. #8 is going in for #21 in the 7 spot in the order. I write the substitution on my L.U. Card. and notify the home team of the change, then we begin the half inning. As the inning progresses, the #7 spot in the order comes up and #4 comes up to bat. I don't look for numbers unless something strange happens. After the first pitch, the home team coach yells out to the catcher, what number is she. "#4". That should be #8. OC coach now comes up and says she meant to say #4 in for #21, not #8. What is the proper procedure for this. I considered this an improper substitution, and make the change on my card and issue a warning to the OC.
Take the numbers and then repeat it to the coach using the names.

That will avoid this happening.

Rita
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 06:13am
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You just have to get down the line as far as you can and follow the trajectory of the ball to judge where it passed over the fence.

As to the substitution, your scorecard would be 21/8/4. #4 is an unreported sub once a pitch was thrown, enter her into the game and issue a warning to the coach. As stated, make sure you repeat the numbers back to the coach, some people even include the name and position in the batting order. But, I have had a couple of occasions where even doing that the coach still tried to claim they meant a different number. Again, the coach gave you a sub, it was accepted, reported and the ball put back into play and became official. One additional item, NFHS requires the ball to be put back into play for the sub to become official, most other rule sets once the sub is accepted and reported it is official.
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 10:01am
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Originally Posted by Rita C View Post
Take the numbers and then repeat it to the coach using the names.

That will avoid this happening.

Rita
I did and she still had it screwed up.
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 10:03am
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Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
You just have to get down the line as far as you can and follow the trajectory of the ball to judge where it passed over the fence.

As to the substitution, your scorecard would be 21/8/4. #4 is an unreported sub once a pitch was thrown, enter her into the game and issue a warning to the coach. As stated, make sure you repeat the numbers back to the coach, some people even include the name and position in the batting order. But, I have had a couple of occasions where even doing that the coach still tried to claim they meant a different number. Again, the coach gave you a sub, it was accepted, reported and the ball put back into play and became official. One additional item, NFHS requires the ball to be put back into play for the sub to become official, most other rule sets once the sub is accepted and reported it is official.
The ball had definitely been returned to play after it was reported. She was the third batter of the inning at least. Basically the coach was completely lost on what was going on. She couldn't even get the names right on her lineup and before it was given to me had names crossed off and rewritten.
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C View Post
Take the numbers and then repeat it to the coach using the names.

That will avoid this happening.

Rita
I favor this practice as well. This past Friday, coach comes up to me with three subs. 9 for 15. I repeat it back to her with the names. 10 for 14. I repeat it back to her with the names. "I don't guy by their names, just their numbers." "You don't know their names, coach?" Silence. And 8 for 16. Me " K, 8 for 16."
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Old Sun May 03, 2015, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C View Post
Take the numbers and then repeat it to the coach using the names.

That will avoid this happening.

Rita

You would think so. However, this happened to me just this season.
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 11:10am
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I'm just curious, but if "This was just one of those games with all sorts of strange things", how is it you were on the plate for most of them, but also on the bases?
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 11:15am
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Referencing the second play:

Whatever happened to NOT taking an offensive sub unless it is for the current batter or an existing base runner?
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 11:25am
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Please don't take offense to this ... but like several of your blogs on this site, most of these "strange" situations are not strange at all. They shouldn't strike you as strange, or unusual.

1 - move as much as you have to to make the best call you can.
2 - 21/8/4 ... but another example of why some will not take projected subs.
3 - nothing odd here, and you called it right.
4 - nothing odd here, and you called it right.
5 - shame on your "partner".

PS ... why are you changing positions during a game?
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntxblue View Post
Referencing the second play:

Whatever happened to NOT taking an offensive sub unless it is for the current batter or an existing base runner?
Amen.
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntxblue View Post
Referencing the second play:

Whatever happened to NOT taking an offensive sub unless it is for the current batter or an existing base runner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Amen.
This wasn't NCAA.
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Old Mon May 04, 2015, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
This wasn't NCAA.
Neither ASA nor NFHS has officially defined what they mean by projected sub - and you will find opinions divided from the newby level up to the state-level guy teaching clinics. I don't know if it's 50-50 ... but I do know that MOST people in my area (Houston, TX) take the prohibition against accepting projected subs to mean that an offensive coach telling you the 2nd or 3rd batter in the inning is going to be subbed for is not a change we should accept... at least until that batter comes up.

I will admit it's certainly not unanimous though. I understand both sides. I just fall on the side of not taking this sub until the batter actually comes up.
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