Fair and Foul

[3ump]

Need some good advice here, during 17 year old tournament game. A long shot down left field line FAIR by 3 feet I was on the plate. I focused on ball landing and it was FAIR, I immediately gave signal for fair ball pointing in 3 times. As I look into the infield my partner for whatever reason throws his arms up and calls foul ball, while his back is to me. There was a runner on 2nd and he was going on the pitch .
Needless to say all hell broke loose it was a tight game. So the settlement was as follows, runner on 2nd I allowed to score he was around 3rd before the foul call. Batter I sent back to first because the only reason he was tug out was the fact foul was called and he stopped to go back. Partner claimed he heard someone call foul but never turned to see who and I have a very loud voice. He also said with more chalk on line he would have seen where ball was.
Long story short what do you do when this happens? Was my placing of runners right or does foul over rule?????

[jTheUmp]

Once a ball is declared foul by an umpire, it is a foul ball.

Gotta put everyone back where they were at the time of the pitch (and add a strike to the batter's count if he had less than 2 strikes).

Then you're probably going to have to toss the Team A coach.

Then you're going to have to have a very serious and one-side conversation with your BU in the parking lot after the game. Topics including, but not limited to:
1) If you, as PU, have a foul call, it's your job to call it loudly enough for the world to hear it. And, even if you're unable to do so, the ball is dead once you declare it foul anyway, so the runners are going to return no matter what.
2) "He also said with more chalk on line he would have seen where ball was." So he was looking to see if the ball was fair or foul? WTF? Who was watching his responsibilities while he was watching yours?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Once a ball is declared foul by an umpire, it is a foul ball.

Gotta put everyone back where they were at the time of the pitch (and add a strike to the batter's count if he had less than 2 strikes).

Then you're probably going to have to toss the Team A coach.

Then you're going to have to have a very serious and one-side conversation with your BU in the parking lot after the game. Topics including, but not limited to:
1) If you, as PU, have a foul call, it's your job to call it loudly enough for the world to hear it. And, even if you're unable to do so, the ball is dead once you declare it foul anyway, so the runners are going to return no matter what.
2) "He also said with more chalk on line he would have seen where ball was." So he was looking to see if the ball was fair or foul? WTF? Who was watching his responsibilities while he was watching yours?

1+

Simply put the BU needs to own up to the mistake.

-Josh

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jdmara

1+

Simply put the BU needs to own up to the mistake.

-Josh

Not just that... it seems to me he doesn't know he made a mistake - that he had no business making a fair/foul call at all... and worse that he should never echo his partner's fair/foul call (or almost any call, really).

[Rich]

There's a new 2013 NCAA rule that will allow this situation (a ball erroneously called foul) to be corrected and will allow the crew chief to place runners where he thinks they should go.

Quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with that.

[Tim C]

Guessing here:

If this was a two person crew with R2 that means your base umpire was in "C".

So why in the he11 was he making a call on the ball.

That being said if your were working under NFHS rules I guess you could make about any "make good" call you wanted.

T

[kylejt]

The old school of thought was there was no way to unring the foul bell. That's changed, as we're leaning more toward the "get it right" way of calling.

It sounds like the BU echoed someone other than the PU. It happens. I've got no problem with the way the crewed "fixed" it, as that's what's being taught nowadays.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Guessing here:

If this was a two person crew with R2 that means your base umpire was in "C".

So why in the he11 was he making a call on the ball.

That being said if your were working under NFHS rules I guess you could make about any "make good" call you wanted.

T

I thought FED had a case play that once somebody called it foul it was dead.

[3ump]

Thanks for the help guys. So the foul call trumps the fair, I can live with that ( I guess) but the defensive coach sure as hell was not. My partner is a seasoned ump and when this happened I was stunned to say the least. Says he heard foul and followed thru with it but like I said I have a boooming voice no mistake bout it. Worse part is I was left to fix it, and the biggest *****er yep it was the offensive coach.

[johnnyg08]

Furthermore, there is no voice on a fair ball.

Are you a newer umpire? Was it possible that BU took it upon himself to "help you" even though you got it right?

If it were my game, Base umpire would be fixing this and explaining it to the coaches.

I would stand by to escort the ejected manager from the field.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The old school of thought was there was no way to unring the foul bell. That's changed, as we're leaning more toward the "get it right" way of calling.

It sounds like the BU echoed someone other than the PU. It happens. I've got no problem with the way the crewed "fixed" it, as that's what's being taught nowadays.

I agree on a situation like this where the ball was clearly fair, and the wrong umpire made the bogus call.

On a "routine" fair/foul call where the correct umpire makes the call, but it may just be wrong because of a questionable lapse in judgment, that I can see where we would live with the call. But even in that case, an exception could be made if it's clear both teams do not react to the erroneous call.

Frankly, I would have put the BR on second base here. The ball was hit far down the left field line, so I don't see why he should be sent back to first if the only reason he was tagged before reaching second was because he reacted to the foul call.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Furthermore, there is no voice on a fair ball..........

The poster said that he signaled 3 times fair. He never said he verbally said FAIR.

[JJ]

This is another reason why a thorough pregame with an unknown partner is valuable. "If you're in the middle I have all the fair/fouls" should let him know he should keep his mouth shut. He may have heard someone from the other team yell "foul" and mimicked the call he thought came from the PU.
And yes, HE should be the one to "fix" it. HE'S the one who screwed up!

JJ

[MD Longhorn]

Yet another reason not to mimic your partner's calls.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by JJ

This is another reason why a thorough pregame with an unknown partner is valuable. "If you're in the middle I have all the fair/fouls" should let him know he should keep his mouth shut.

In all honesty, this is something I would never cover with my partner during pre-game. It should be common sense that an umpire inside the diamond has ZERO fair/foul responsibility!

The only fair/foul coverage we go over is when the BU is in A.