NFHS question on playing shorthanded

[Tru_in_Blu]

First, some NFHS references:

Rule 4 SECTION 3 FORFEITED GAME
ART. 1... A game shall be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team:
f. cannot provide 9 players (FP) to start the game.
g. cannot provide 8 players (FP) in the batting order to finish the game. An out is called in that spot of the batting order (7.4.1). If that player has safely reached base, then the most recent batter not on base is allowed to run for that player, until that player is put out, scores, or the half-inning ends.

Rule 7 SECTION 4 BATTER IS OUT
ART. 1... A team is playing with one less than the starting number in the batting order and her turn to bat is reached.

Rule 2 SECTION 7 BATTING ORDER, OUT OF ORDER
ART. 1... Batting Order. The batting order is the official list of starting offensive players presented in the order in which they are to bat and recorded on a line-up card.

At an apprentice class we recently had a discussion, based on NFHS rules (some of which are referenced above), if a team could play defense with only 7 players.

NFHS does not have a shorthanded rule as ASA does where a FP game could be started with 8 players. NFHS does allow for a team to continue to play with 8 in the batting order and provides an out when that batting order position is due to bat.

Our question is as follows...

During the course of the game, visitors team has a player leave the game due to injury. Whenever that player's turn in the batting order came up, they had to take an out.

In the top of the 7th inning, visitors are ahead. During their offensive half-inning, another player was injured on a play at the plate for the third out of the inning.

Can the visitors take the field in the bottom of the 7th with only 7 defensive players?

If citing any of the previously noted rule references, please explain your logic.

If there are other references that might/do apply, please note those.

A related, but separate question: If a player leaves the game due to injury, can she return to the game later, perhaps even after having had an out called in her batting order position?

Thanx.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, over 100 views and not a single reply. I didn't realize that folks thought this was so easy.

Playing devil's advocate for a minute...

From the previous scenario, coach sends out only 7 players to play on defense in the bottom of the 7th inning.

Umpire says he must have at least 8 players in the batting order.

Coach says he still has 8 players in the batting order (see definition of batting order).

Umpire says all defensive players except the catcher must be positioned in fair territory.

Coach says that if the exception was OK for the 9th player in his batting order (i.e. the first injured player), by extension is has to be OK for the 8th player in his batting order, the player injured in the top of the 7th.

I THINK I know that the visitors cannot continue with only 7 in the field. It's not come up for me in any HS games I've worked. ASA wording is clearer than NFHS.

What is the definitive rule or passage that prohibits the team from playing 7 on defense?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Another ASA rule which is clear is that if a team is only playing 9 (FP) and one player is ejected, the game is over and the shorthanded team forfeits the game.

In HS if a team is playing with 9 and a player is restricted to the dugout or ejected, bringing the batting order to 8, does the game continue?

Not able to find a specific reference. I did look at the ASA-NCAA-NFHS Differences document but couldn't find anything there.

Thanx.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Umpire says he must have at least 8 players in the batting order.

Coach says he still has 8 players in the batting order (see definition of batting order).

Umpire says all defensive players except the catcher must be positioned in fair territory.

Coach says that if the exception was OK for the 9th player in his batting order (i.e. the first injured player), by extension is has to be OK for the 8th player in his batting order, the player injured in the top of the 7th.

I THINK I know that the visitors cannot continue with only 7 in the field. It's not come up for me in any HS games I've worked. ASA wording is clearer than NFHS.

What is the definitive rule or passage that prohibits the team from playing 7 on defense?

As far as I am concerned, you cited the proper rule. The exception is exactly what it says it is; the 9th player is an out, and the 9th player (only) then does not play defense. Thank you for wanting to apply that to another player, too, Coach, but no, the rule doesn't say that; thank you for playing "Let's make up a rule to suit our situation". The 8th player must play defense, or you have an illegal pitch every time the pitcher let's go of the ball without that required player in fair territory. That could happen for two pitches; then 4-3-e makes it a forfeit for willfully and persistently violating a rule after being warned by the umpire. Personally, I'm not letting a coach make that mockery.

The only thing that could make it a bigger mockery is for you to allow it to continue, and the opposing team then intentionally walk batters to get to the position that is then vacant due to the second injury. Actually, if I were the opposing coach and you let them play, I wouldn't waste 4 pitches; I would hit each batter on the first pitch to get there. Make the necessary ruling, and stand by it; let them contact the state association and be laughed at.

Poorly worded, the requirement should be to present 8 players on both offense and defense, but is still means what it means.

To your other question, NFHS rules do not state it is a forfeit to play shorthanded as a result of an ejection. Accordingly, we cannot apply the ASA ruling absent a state adoption.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thank you, Steve.

[UmpireErnie]

The visiting team cannot start the bottom of the inning with less than eight in the batting order even though they are now playing defense. A team has a batting order the entire game not just when they are batting.

[varefump]

To the question: "A related, but separate question: If a player leaves the game due to injury, can she return to the game later, perhaps even after having had an out called in her batting order position?", Theresia Wynns at NFHS says that a player cannot come back in if she has gone out because of injury and the team had to play short-handed. However, if a team member shows up to the game and has not been in the game already, then she could take the injured player's spot in the line-up and the team could finish with nine.

[CecilOne]

Think "batting order" as "lineup" without FLEX.
The rules were written before FLEX, so the logic is the same with "batting order" meaning all in game except the FLEX.
NOTE: The FLEX can not play defense for an injured player, except the DP.

I believe that is true for both ASA & NFHS, probably USSSA & PONY.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by varefump

To the question: "A related, but separate question: If a player leaves the game due to injury, can she return to the game later, perhaps even after having had an out called in her batting order position?", Theresia Wynns at NFHS says that a player cannot come back in if she has gone out because of injury and the team had to play short-handed. However, if a team member shows up to the game and has not been in the game already, then she could take the injured player's spot in the line-up and the team could finish with nine.

I think the blood rule is an exception. Does your source provide a rule reference? Is there a case play I may have missed?

Thanx.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I think the blood rule is an exception. Does your source provide a rule reference? Is there a case play I may have missed?

Thanx.

Blood rule when treatment required is separate from the shorthanded rule, re-entry is allowed. Try 3-3-10.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Blood rule when treatment required is separate from the shorthanded rule, re-entry is allowed. Try 3-3-10.

I'll take that as your opinion, as I interpret these entities differently.

Article 5 Any player, starter or substitute may be withdrawn from the game and re-entered once, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever in the lineup.

So, unless this player's withdrawal brings the team to less than 8, the game continues. The rule doesn't say this "withdrawal" requires a substitute. (Although if one were available, I'd guess it would make sense to utilize said sub.)

The bottom of your 3-3-10 states: The re-entry rule would apply to players take out of the game for this rule. (I.E. blood rule)

A few years ago, rightly or wrongly, I did allow an offensive player who had become injured to leave the game. The team started the game w/ 9. They played for 2 innings with 8 on defense. When the girl's spot in the order came up, she had recovered enough to play again. I let her bat, and she finished the game playing defense the rest of the way.

Was that wrong? (For NFHS)

[Tru_in_Blu]

We had our state interpreter check w/ Federation office. This is what he sent me after hearing back from them:

"Hi Ted. Finally heard back from Federation. If a team goes short handed due to an injury and that player later in the game can return, it is legal for them to reenter the game in the same batting spot."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

We had our state interpreter check w/ Federation office. This is what he sent me after hearing back from them:

"Hi Ted. Finally heard back from Federation. If a team goes short handed due to an injury and that player later in the game can return, it is legal for them to reenter the game in the same batting spot."

I guess we have to give them credit for interpreting a non-existent rule.
The rules never prohibit the player from returning regardless of the reason.
Shorthanded should be elaborated in NFHS, as I have said before.

Also, no wording whether the re-entry rule applies.

BUT, re-entry applies to the blood rule.

So, by this interpretation, a player can leave the lineup, return later. Then a second player can leave and return and so on. YUK!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, there's sort of a rule that I stated before:

Article 5 Any player, starter or substitute may be withdrawn from the game and re-entered once, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever in the lineup.

[UmpireErnie]

So if in a NFHS game a player leaves and returns, and no sub takes her place (short hand rule is applied) has this player used her reentry?

Which now makes me wonder, if the player leaves the game and team goes short handed then she returns while on defense and catches a fly ball can the other team claim she is an unreported sub because her reentry was not reported?