A simple yes or no......

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by chapmaja
(snip)
My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either
1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or
2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.
(snip).
.

What I don't like about this is the part about "anything different".
I want "something specific"

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

What I don't like about this is the part about "anything different".
I want "something specific"

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

That's a good question. At least it starts with a question much better than "anything different" or "what did you have".
Theoretically, the former (No, the tag missed," and be done with it) is acceptable, after all it is the BU call and that seems their only doubt.

Now, if the BU asks next "did you see anything else", you are back to non-specific; but I have to answer about the tag. Maybe being inconsistent, but is having both questions really a TWP?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...S(he) says...

Mike would prefer you say "They said..."

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That's a good question. At least it starts with a question much better than "anything different" or "what did you have".
Theoretically, the former (No, the tag missed," and be done with it) is acceptable, after all it is the BU call and that seems their only doubt.

Now, if the BU asks next "did you see anything else", you are back to non-specific; but I have to answer about the tag. Maybe being inconsistent, but is having both questions really a TWP?

I would only be this picky in the content of the conversation if I was having this discussion with a coach asking me to go for help. Once with my partner, I will offer all I have and they () can choose what to do with it. With my partner, I would assume they are () capable of using the information appropriately.

[Andy]

I would offer the fact that I saw F3 come down with the ball on the edge of the orange bag prior to the runner arriving. I would also tell him that the tag missed.

It's then up to him to use that information and relay his decision to the coach.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(Snip) Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

Which makes me think about the many times I have been asked "Did she go" on a checked swing and I have been tempted to answer, "NO, but the pitch caught the corner" accompanied by a strike signal.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgement.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgement call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

IMHO the former will be forgotten and forgiven much quicker than the latter. I think we have all seen this happen setting the shit-storm in motion.
I see it as throwing good money after bad.

This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

The OP read like not visible from "C".

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.


This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

Agree with these parts.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgment.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgment call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

This is where the tough choices are; which gets back to whether the PU tells the BU about the base tag or just answers about the runner swipe.
I can live with being under the bus if we get the call right.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The OP read like not visible from "C".

Therefore call the Out and wait for an appeal on a pulled foot.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgement.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgement call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

IMHO the former will be forgotten and forgiven much quicker than the latter. I think we have all seen this happen setting the shit-storm in motion.
I see it as throwing good money after bad.

This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

I guess you missed my point.

I was trying to address your comment that the BU should ask for something specific. He did. He thought he saw a tag so he ruled an out, and then he goes to the PU for help after the coach asked him to, and asks the PU if there was a tag.

Should the PU answer his specific question that there was no tag, and offer no more assistance because that's all that was asked of him? Or should the PU discuss the whole play and tell the BU there was no tag, but there was an out because F3 stepped on the bag?

In other words, are you an advocate for specificity, or an advocate for getting the call correct?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess you missed my point.

I was trying to address your comment that the BU should ask for something specific. He did. He thought he saw a tag so he ruled an out, and then he goes to the PU for help after the coach asked him to, and asks the PU if there was a tag.

Should the PU answer his specific question that there was no tag, and offer no more assistance because that's all that was asked of him? Or should the PU discuss the whole play and tell the BU there was no tag, but there was an out because F3 stepped on the bag?

In other words, are you an advocate for specificity, or an advocate for getting the call correct?

In this case, specificity.
As BU I would only go to my partner with something specific, typically looking for a yes/no response..
Now there are questions that have a yes/no response that are not specific enough, like "Did I kick that call?"

I would wait for DC to come out and ask for help on unpulling the foot on the initial play.

Now if this was a rec game and a young umpire, I may be inclined to cut the partner some slack and use it as a teaching moment. The OP has all the makings of this. And if so, I would have asked why the tag call was relevant to the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

Not like that, but yes, you make it known as in, "No, I did not see a tag. But we may have a possible protest situation"