F2 Throws to F5 to Hold R2

[Manny A]

I worked an ASA-sanctioned Father's Day All Star tournament this past weekend. I noticed quite regularly this situation:

Runner on second (R2) took a pretty good lead after each pitch. When F2 would catch the pitch, she would stand up, look at R2 as R2 stood there, maybe even feint a throw to second, and then would throw the ball to F5 covering third base. F5 would then chase R2 back to second before throwing the ball to F1.

Would this be a situation where F2 is throwing to a base but not actually making a play on a runner? In almost every case, R2 never made any move toward third. She just stood there maybe 10-15 feet off second, baiting F2 to throw behind her so that she could take off for third.

Nobody complained about it, but I was curious. It seemed to be fairly routine tactic to address the situation.

[BretMan]

I had this same thing happen to me last weekend, maybe two or three times. And the same thoughts you're having went through my head when I saw it.

I decided (to myself- no one was complaining about it) that with a live runner off the bag at second, the throw was a play on a runner.

But that was just my snap on-the-spot judgment. Not sure if I've ever seen this exact thing discussed in a case play, etc.

[jmkupka]

6.7.B Exception doesn't restrict F2 to whom she must throw (if not to F1).

No different than F2 throwing to an in-close F4 when there's a 1st & 3rd situation...

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

6.7.B Exception doesn't restrict F2 to whom she must throw (if not to F1).

No different than F2 throwing to an in-close F4 when there's a 1st & 3rd situation...

But in that case, the throw is made toward second as R1 is headed there, and F4 cuts the throw off. That is easily justifiable as an attempt to make a play on R1.

And I'm a bit mystified by the ASA exception you mention. If there was a runner at first base, and F2 throws the ball to third, that would clearly be a violation under other rule sets (NFHS 6-3-2, NCAA 10.16, perhaps others) since there is no way in hell that can be construed as "a play on a base runner".

But the ASA exception doesn't say anything about a play on a runner. It just says as long as there is a runner on a base, the exception applies. Or does it? Is the intent of the wording to imply the throw is to make a play on that runner or not?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But in that case, the throw is made toward second as R1 is headed there, and F4 cuts the throw off. That is easily justifiable as an attempt to make a play on R1.

And I'm a bit mystified by the ASA exception you mention. If there was a runner at first base, and F2 throws the ball to third, that would clearly be a violation under other rule sets (NFHS 6-3-2, NCAA 10.16, perhaps others) since there is no way in hell that can be construed as "a play on a base runner".

But the ASA exception doesn't say anything about a play on a runner. It just says as long as there is a runner on a base, the exception applies. Or does it? Is the intent of the wording to imply the throw is to make a play on that runner or not?

The rule is not intended for what you're trying to do to it. It doesn't apply with runners on base. ASA doesn't care whether it's a play or not.

The rule prevents catchers from throwing around the horn on strikeouts or otherwise wasting time after a pitch with no one on base. That's all it's for.

[jmkupka]

Actually MD, the rule itself (not the exception) does explicitly allow for throwing around the horn after a strikeout.

"The catcher shall return the ball directly to the pitcher after each pitch, except
after a strikeout,..."

(from the only online book I can find right now, the 2009 version-hope the wording hasn't changed)

And regarding Manny's comment, the exception doesn't mention a runner trying to steal (or getting a big lead), simply a runner on base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

And regarding Manny's comment, the exception doesn't mention a runner trying to steal (or getting a big lead), simply a runner on base.

So, in an ASA game, with a runner on first base, the catcher throws the ball to F5 at third after the first pitch of Ball to the batter. You're suggesting that we completely ignore it.

[jmkupka]

Don't see anything in that rule that let's us do otherwise. Not to say elsewhere in the book mentions game-delaying tactics...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, in an ASA game, with a runner on first base, the catcher throws the ball to F5 at third after the first pitch of Ball to the batter. You're suggesting that we completely ignore it.

What exactly are you suggesting? Teams do what you're saying, and it's a problem? In 22 years I've never seen that happen. What's the ACTUAL problem you're worried about here.

All I was saying before was that the actions you described are not even remotely against the rules. Stupid? Yeah, maybe - why make a needless throw when you've got a runner on 2nd when there are smarter ways to stop her? And does your plan backfire when you throw it into left field?

But illegal? Not at all.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, in an ASA game, with a runner on first base, the catcher throws the ball to F5 at third after the first pitch of Ball to the batter. You're suggesting that we completely ignore it.

Yup.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Yup.

Ditto that.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What exactly are you suggesting? Teams do what you're saying, and it's a problem? In 22 years I've never seen that happen. What's the ACTUAL problem you're worried about here.

I'm not worried about anything. I'm merely bringing up another disparity in the rules, and was simply inquiring why.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not worried about anything. I'm merely bringing up another disparity in the rules, and was simply inquiring why.

There is no disparity in the rule. The rule clearly states it is not applicable with runners on base. That's it, pretty straight forward. Been that way for at least 48 years.

To start, it is a stupid play. Other than to put out a stealing runner or to pick-off a runner, throwing to any player other than the pitcher is just dumb. Sort of gives you an idea of how smart the coaches are when it is permitted.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm not worried about anything. I'm merely bringing up another disparity in the rules, and was simply inquiring why.

It may be slightly different, but I don't see a major discrepancy here. The catcher cannot throw to someone other than the pitcher unless there is a runner (in which case there is no excluded place to throw), or after a strike out. Whatever reason the catcher uses with a baserunner is legal, even if we think it has no point; we are not supposed to be judging the quality of their "strategy".

The rule is intended solely as a speed-up rule. In earlier years, especially in the men's fastpitch games, catchers routinely threw the ball to any other infielder, not the pitcher; after EVERY PITCH. That infielder then carried the ball to the pitcher, spoke with him, did everything but the current female-version pattycake, THEN handed him the ball. As umpires, we could not even start a "time between pitches" count until the pitcher got the ball, no matter how long it took, without being that OOO no one wants to be. This rule fixed that; with no runners, the catcher has to return it to the pitcher, and we can start a timing count, if one is needed.

If you feel a team is using tactics designed solely to kill time, reference THAT in addressing it, and not the specifics of this rule. The threat of a forfeit carries a LOT more weight than an awarded ball.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I worked an ASA-sanctioned Father's Day All Star tournament this past weekend. I noticed quite regularly this situation:

Runner on second (R2) took a pretty good lead after each pitch. When F2 would catch the pitch, she would stand up, look at R2 as R2 stood there, maybe even feint a throw to second, and then would throw the ball to F5 covering third base. F5 would then chase R2 back to second before throwing the ball to F1.

Would this be a situation where F2 is throwing to a base but not actually making a play on a runner? In almost every case, R2 never made any move toward third. She just stood there maybe 10-15 feet off second, baiting F2 to throw behind her so that she could take off for third.

Nobody complained about it, but I was curious. It seemed to be fairly routine tactic to address the situation.

What is the opinion on this if we were talking high school rules? My personal opinion, since F5 chases R2 back towards second, she is making a play on the runner, therefore no problem. Also, I think it helps to know the intent of the action by R2. She is likely hoping that F1 fires to F4 or F6 in an attempt to pick her off second, at which time she will break to third base attempting to steal 3rd. Its just one of those little games that get played between offense and defense, and is designed to catch a sleeping team sleeping.