Hold your spots!!

[ChuckElias]

Did a boys varsity scrimmage this morning. Quality of play was low and there's not a whole lot of talent on the two teams. But they were competitive with each other, which is good. Anyway, we had 3 guys there to work the scrimmage (working in 2-man crews). My partner (a varsity official) goes to toss up the jump ball. He looks around the circle and says, "Ok, hold 'em". Then looks around again, backs out of the circle and says to the players around the 3-point arc, "Guys, find a spot and hold it!"

After the first period (we ran 5 10-minute periods), I got the 3 of us together and asked, "Do the guys that aren't on the circle have to hold a spot on the jump?" He said, yes they do. That's the whole point of telling the players to be set. The other official was a newer guy (2nd full season) and just went along with him.

I will be holding my rulebook tomorrow morning when we revisit this discussion at our board meeting.

Chuck

[JO]

The restriction is for "Moving ONTO" the circle, NOT moving OFF the circle....AND...B1 can move OFF the circle and go behind A1....IF...B1 is 5 feet off the circle...remember that each position, like this one, is 3 feet deep... Read case book 6.4.2.....If B1 would move off the circle, as the official is about to toss the ball, and then move directly behind A1 (who is on the circle) = violation.

Once the ball is tossed....the restriction for moving onto the circle is over....but non jumpers cannot break the plane of the circle until the ball is touched by one of the jumpers...

Hope this Helps....JO

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JO
....AND...B1 can move OFF the circle and go behind A1....IF...B1 is 5 feet off the circle...remember that each position, like this one, is 3 feet deep...

B1 Read case book 6.4.2.....If B1 would move off the circle, as the official is about to toss the ball, and then move directly behind A1 (who is on the circle) = violation.

Don't help one bit,JO. It's completely wrong!

1)B1 doesn't have to stay 5 feet off the circle--only has to be more than 3 feet off the circle before the ball is tossed.
2)if B1 moves off the circle and goes directly behind A1,it's only a violation IF B1 is within 3 feet of the circle before the ball is tossed.

You've got the right casebook play,but you're reading it wrong!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 7th, 2002 at 08:28 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You've got the right casebook play, but you're reading it wrong!

She does that a lot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

She does that a lot.

Yup,some wimmen should never have a whistle!


Just kidding!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
She does that a lot.

Yup,some wimmen should never have a whistle!

Just kidding! [/B][/QUOTE]

Of course you're not kidding! At least I hope not!! Women are no different than men and can be just as incompetent as men!! Give us a little credit!!

[JO]

When B moves off the circle (when the referee is about to toss the ball) and goes behind A1 "... B3 moves off the circle about 5 feet and moves around behind A3 and A4 who are occupying spaces on the circle." this situation is legal....B3 cannot take a position behind an opponent and be 3 feet off the circle; read situation "C"; Therefore the rules committee says a player can move within 5 feet of the circle (when the referee is about to toss the ball) and NOT be considered "moving onto the circle"

Hope this Helps....JO [/B][/QUOTE]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
"Do the guys that aren't on the circle have to hold a spot on the jump?"

Chuck obviously you know the correct ruling or you wouldn't have even brought it up at the game. This also came up in our rookie training meeting out here. We have some excellent people who are really studying the rules and trying hard, but have some confusion. Therefore, I take the attitude that I want to help these people not criticize them.
So I will tell you that I showed him 6-4-2 and 6-4-5 to convince him what restrictions there are for a non-jumper. He especially connected with the idea that 6-4-5b says "occupied space" therefore any UNoccupied space is fair game. Although, I told him that "occupied space" was a technical term for the imaginary spots around the center restraining cirlce detailed in 1-3-1, and not just general open space on the court, it still made it clear in his head that these players could move around.
I suggest this approach when you attempt to convince your fellow official.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JO
When B moves off the circle (when the referee is about to toss the ball) and goes behind A1 "... B3 moves off the circle about 5 feet and moves around behind A3 and A4 who are occupying spaces on the circle." this situation is legal....B3 cannot take a position behind an opponent and be 3 feet off the circle; read situation "C"; Therefore the rules committee says a player can move within 5 feet of the circle (when the referee is about to toss the ball) and NOT be considered "moving onto the circle"

Hope this Helps....JO

[/B][/QUOTE]Now,you got it right,JO. It's 3 feet,not 5 feet as you stated in your original post.
Glad I could help.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Now,you got it right,JO. It's 3 feet,not 5 feet as you stated in your original post.
Glad I could help. [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe he had it right to start with. He was giving an example of a legal play, not the limit of what was legal. He did say the space was 3ft deep. I interpreted his reference to "directly" as being very close (1-2 feet perhaps). No need to claim he was completely wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JO
The restriction is for "Moving ONTO" the circle, NOT moving OFF the circle....AND...B1 can move OFF the circle and go behind A1....IF...B1 is 5 feet off the circle...

If B1 would move off the circle, as the official is about to toss the ball, and then move directly behind A1 (who is on the circle) = violation.

Camron,these are the original statements that she made-not the edited one that she put in below them.Are you telling me that these two statements aren't wrong?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 9th, 2002 at 06:57 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

JR - I think that he is saying you are reading two examples JO gave just a tad too literally. JO differentiates between being outside of 3 feet, and within 3 feet (if you understand directly behing a player who is standing directly on the circle to be w/i 3 feet). JO even referenced 3 feet in the full text of the first post (about the only part of the post that you left off in your quote above).

So JO gave two examples, one legal and one not, and provided the 3 foot reference. I don't see either example that he or she provided in the first post as wrong. Help me - am I missing something obvious here?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JO
B1 can move OFF the circle and go behind A1....IF...B1 is 5 feet off the circle

If B1 would move off the circle, as the official is about to toss the ball, and then move directly behind A1 (who is on the circle) = violation.

The top statement is correct,but leaves the wrong impression for anyone who is not an official,a new official or one who is unsure of the rule.The proper way to state it so as to not confuse anyone is "B1 can legally go behind A1 if B1 is more than 3 feet off the circle".JO has left the impression that you must be 5ft. from the circle,which isn't the actual,legal restriction on this play.

That point is also what makes the 2nd statement false.Again,it is not always a violation-as that statement implies. It is only a violation if B1 is within 3ft of the circle when he/she moves behind A1.Any distance over 3ft is legal.

I'm not really being anal,guys.A newbie reading JO's post would probably mis-interpret the actual rule,which is pretty straight forward.Don't forget,Camron and Coach,that you guys are knowledgeable about the rules-way more so than a lot of people that visit here.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 9th, 2002 at 08:51 PM]

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Camron,these are the original statements that she made-not the edited one that she put in below them.Are you telling me that these two statements aren't wrong?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 9th, 2002 at 06:57 PM]

Yes, I'm saying they aren't wrong. They are, as you say, incomplete and they are not the limit of what the rule allows/disallows. 5ft is more than 3ft so it is legal to move behind someone at a distance of 5 feet. I viewed the 5ft. scenario as case play, not a rule citation.