Collision at First Base

[youngump]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

That play happened in an NCAA game 2 or three years ago and was protested.
The ruling was the same as youi were told at the national school.

Yes, it is a hard sell. I was't sure of ASA's take on it, but (if I can believe waht you say , ASA agrees.....

It would be interesting to have more details. If the umpire judged that the fielder had control and tagged the bag and then lost control and called safe, then that seems like a losing protest. On the other hand if the umpire judged that there was no control then what's to protest.

[Dakota]

ASA, NFHS, NCAA, ... pick your poison...

OK, for you counting-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin types:

R1 on 1B. B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of 2B and F4 fields the ball with her bare hand, runs toward 2B, and dives toward 2B. In the base umpire’s judgment, F4 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely. F4, with her hand outstretched, and R1 are both converging on 2B at about the same time.

a) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, the ball rolls loose.
b) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, R1 sliding in, and contacts F4's hand, and the ball rolls loose.
c) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, F4's hand contacts the base, and the ball rolls loose.
d) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, the ball rolls loose.

Rulings? Same, different, why?

[nopachunts]

If a base is touched by a fielder while controlling the ball in hand or glove with any part of her body when a runner is forced to that base/plate, the runner is out. The touch only has to be momentary while having control of the ball in the judgement of the umpire. How many times have you seen F3 field the throw, reach out and touch the bag, and immediately pull her foot back because the runner is going to run through the bag.

If a runner is tagged off of the base, the fielder has to tag the runner with the ball in hand or glove, AND show control of the ball before, during, and after the tag.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA, NFHS, NCAA, ... pick your poison...

OK, for you counting-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin types:

R1 on 1B. B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of 2B and F4 fields the ball with her bare hand, runs toward 2B, and dives toward 2B. In the base umpire’s judgment, F4 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely. F4, with her hand outstretched, and R1 are both converging on 2B at about the same time.

a) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, the ball rolls loose.
b) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, R1 sliding in, and contacts F4's hand, and the ball rolls loose.
c) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, F4's hand contacts the base, and the ball rolls loose.
d) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, the ball rolls loose.

Rulings? Same, different, why?

In a) touching the base made the ball come loose, at game speed, I'm not going to believe she had control before hitting the bag. Safe.
In b) the retired runner failed to go poof and made the ball come loose, that's interference Seriously though, I'm going with an out because I saw control when she tagged the bag and the contact with the runner was a separate action.
In c) I have the same thing as b though a much tougher sell.
In D) I have the same thing as a.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Too many arguing absolutes when this is obviously a judgment call and that is what you tell the coach. "at the time she contacted the base with her glove, she had control of the ball. Subsequent action is irrelevant to that determination."

There is no rule or interpretation of which I am aware that states a defender must untag or remove the ball/glove from the player or base to complete a tag.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA, NFHS, NCAA, ... pick your poison...

OK, for you counting-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin types:

R1 on 1B. B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of 2B and F4 fields the ball with her bare hand, runs toward 2B, and dives toward 2B. In the base umpire’s judgment, F4 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely. F4, with her hand outstretched, and R1 are both converging on 2B at about the same time.

a) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, the ball rolls loose.I have a loss of control on this and thus no out call.
b) F4 dives on 2B and touches it with the ball. As soon as F4 touches 2B with the ball, R1 sliding in, and contacts F4's hand, and the ball rolls loose. I have an out call on this play. The contact with R1 (tag) was not the reason the ball came loose, the subsequent contact with the base after a legal tag on R1 caused the ball to come loose.
c) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, F4's hand contacts the base, and the ball rolls loose. The umpire needs to make a decision, even as split second as it is, as to what caused the ball to come loose. The odds of both contacts at the same moment are actually slim. One had to happen before the other, and it is the umpires judgment that determines the call. Since the judgment of an official is not subject to protesting, or arguing. one coach is going to be unhappy no matter what the call is but will have to like with the judgment call of the umpire.
d) F4 dives as R1 is sliding into 2B. F4 touches R1's foot with the ball before she reaches 2B. As soon as F4 touches R1 with the ball, the ball rolls loose. I have a safe call because the player did not maintain control of the ball during the tag.

Rulings? Same, different, why?

Response in red in quoted section.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

If a base is touched by a fielder while controlling the ball in hand or glove with any part of her body when a runner is forced to that base/plate, the runner is out. The touch only has to be momentary while having control of the ball in the judgement of the umpire. How many times have you seen F3 field the throw, reach out and touch the bag, and immediately pull her foot back because the runner is going to run through the bag.

Touching the bag with any other part of the body while holding the ball in the hand or glove/mitt is not the issue. In those cases, you have clear, unequivocal evidence that the fielder maintained control of the ball after immediately pulling the foot off the bag.

Are you going to rule an out when the fielder immediately removes the foot from the bag, but then before she reaches into her glove to transfer the ball and throw to another base, she drops it? I hope not.

Originally Posted by nopachunts

If a runner is tagged off of the base, the fielder has to tag the runner with the ball in hand or glove, AND show control of the ball before, during, and after the tag.

Rule cite, please. Where in the definition of Tag does it say that? And why is this different than the tag of the base?

As Irish said, this all boils down to judgment. And I will judge every time I see a fielder touch the base with the ball either in her hand or her glove/mitt and then lose it as not having control.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Touching the bag with any other part of the body while holding the ball in the hand or glove/mitt is not the issue. In those cases, you have clear, unequivocal evidence that the fielder maintained control of the ball after immediately pulling the foot off the bag.

Are you going to rule an out when the fielder immediately removes the foot from the bag, but then before she reaches into her glove to transfer the ball and throw to another base, she drops it? I hope not.

Rule cite, please. Where in the definition of Tag does it say that? And why is this different than the tag of the base?

As Irish said, this all boils down to judgment. And I will judge every time I see a fielder touch the base with the ball either in her hand or her glove/mitt and then lose it as not having control.

ASA definition: Tag
A legal tag is the act of a defensive player:
A. Touching a base with any part of the body while holding the securely and firmly in the hand or glove or:
B. Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

You, Irish, and me all agree that it is in our judgement. If all a defensive player has to do is touch the base to force a runner, if she has control of the ball when she first touches the base, I have an out. That's my judgement. If after she has touched the base controlling the ball, she drops it, I still have an out because she touched the base while controlling the ball. It's your judgement if she held the ball long enough or not to show control.

On a tag, in my judgement, she has to maintain contol of the ball before the tag, during the tag, and show control after the tag by showing me voluntary release. If I don't have those three things on an attempted tag, I don't have a tag.

I don't want to get into a seed spitting contest, but the fielder showing control is in our judgement as umpires.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Too many arguing absolutes when this is obviously a judgment call and that is what you tell the coach....

My point with the "counting-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin" comment.

At game speed, it would be very difficult (but not impossible, I guess) to judge an OUT call on any of my variations.

The discussion of absolutes is useful so long a people do not take it too far in application. It does identify the boundary conditions that can help with making the judgment.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Is it generally agreed (in cases like this) that when a collision is imminent and the defense is trying to make a play; that the offense (runner) is responsible for avoidance?

No. Why?

I have been told that over the years and asking for confirm or deny.

Also, the runner is more flexible in path than a defender already in position.