Collision at First Base

[bbsbvb83]

NFHS RULES

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

As long as F4 had possession of the ball at the time the base was touched, out. Subsequent action cannot negate that.

Of course, that doesn't mean MLB will not come up with an interpretation requiring a defender to take two complete steps prior to said release of ball to consider the play complete and allow the out to stand.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

NFHS RULES

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

I would concur with Irish that it is an out. The reason. The only thing I have read about a force out in the rules is that a force can be obtained by either tagging the runner forced to advance, or tagging the base the runner is forced to advance to while in possession of the ball.

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

This does bring up the issue of a train wreck, vs interference by a retired runner though :>

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I would concur with Irish that it is an out. The reason. The only thing I have read about a force out in the rules is that a force can be obtained by either tagging the runner forced to advance, or tagging the base the runner is forced to advance to while in possession of the ball.

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

This does bring up the issue of a train wreck, vs interference by a retired runner though :>

Only for the OOO

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

The problem is that you could easily argue F4 didn't have control of the ball in her glove when she stepped on the bag and collided with the BR, and that's why it fell out. Hard to really tell when everything happens almost simultaneously.

Good luck trying to sell that though.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The problem is that you could easily argue F4 didn't have control of the ball in her glove when she stepped on the bag and collided with the BR, and that's why it fell out. Hard to really tell when everything happens almost simultaneously.

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

I would argue she didn't. And I would call Safe on this play. If you argue that she did have control the instant she touched the base with the ball in her glove, you would never have a Safe call when a fielder tags a runner and then loses the ball during the tag.

To me, you must maintain control after the tag of the base or the runner. I don't read anything different in the definition of Tag between tagging the base or tagging the runner.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I would argue she didn't. And I would call Safe on this play. If you argue that she did have control the instant she touched the base with the ball in her glove, you would never have a Safe call when a fielder tags a runner and then loses the ball during the tag.

To me, you must maintain control after the tag of the base or the runner. I don't read anything different in the definition of Tag between tagging the base or tagging the runner.

And I would agree with you, if you did call the out on this play you will have an offensive coach headed for the parking lot. But, as I said this was presented at the ASA national school by one of the members of the national staff. As I recall their statement was the requirements for the physical tag of a runner and the tag of a base were not the same. For purposes of tagging the base as long as the fielder had demonstrated control prior to tagging the base, the out occured the instant the glove touched the base and the ball was lost after the out occured.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

That play happened in an NCAA game 2 or three years ago and was protested.
The ruling was the same as youi were told at the national school.

Yes, it is a hard sell. I was't sure of ASA's take on it, but (if I can believe waht you say , ASA agrees.....

[youngump]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

That play happened in an NCAA game 2 or three years ago and was protested.
The ruling was the same as youi were told at the national school.

Yes, it is a hard sell. I was't sure of ASA's take on it, but (if I can believe waht you say , ASA agrees.....

It would be interesting to have more details. If the umpire judged that the fielder had control and tagged the bag and then lost control and called safe, then that seems like a losing protest. On the other hand if the umpire judged that there was no control then what's to protest.