Collision at First Base

[bbsbvb83]

NFHS RULES

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

As long as F4 had possession of the ball at the time the base was touched, out. Subsequent action cannot negate that.

Of course, that doesn't mean MLB will not come up with an interpretation requiring a defender to take two complete steps prior to said release of ball to consider the play complete and allow the out to stand.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by bbsbvb83

NFHS RULES

F4 fields a ground ball as F3 falls on her face attempting to cover first base. F4, with the ball secured in her glove, uses approximately eight steps to win a foot race with the BR to first base. A split second after stepping on the bag, a collision occurs between F4 and the BR. The collision causes F4 to drop the ball. What say you... out or safe?

I would concur with Irish that it is an out. The reason. The only thing I have read about a force out in the rules is that a force can be obtained by either tagging the runner forced to advance, or tagging the base the runner is forced to advance to while in possession of the ball.

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

This does bring up the issue of a train wreck, vs interference by a retired runner though :>

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I would concur with Irish that it is an out. The reason. The only thing I have read about a force out in the rules is that a force can be obtained by either tagging the runner forced to advance, or tagging the base the runner is forced to advance to while in possession of the ball.

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

This does bring up the issue of a train wreck, vs interference by a retired runner though :>

Only for the OOO

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

As soon as F4 touched the base while in possession of the ball, the out occurs.

The problem is that you could easily argue F4 didn't have control of the ball in her glove when she stepped on the bag and collided with the BR, and that's why it fell out. Hard to really tell when everything happens almost simultaneously.

Good luck trying to sell that though.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The problem is that you could easily argue F4 didn't have control of the ball in her glove when she stepped on the bag and collided with the BR, and that's why it fell out. Hard to really tell when everything happens almost simultaneously.

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

I would argue she didn't. And I would call Safe on this play. If you argue that she did have control the instant she touched the base with the ball in her glove, you would never have a Safe call when a fielder tags a runner and then loses the ball during the tag.

To me, you must maintain control after the tag of the base or the runner. I don't read anything different in the definition of Tag between tagging the base or tagging the runner.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I would argue she didn't. And I would call Safe on this play. If you argue that she did have control the instant she touched the base with the ball in her glove, you would never have a Safe call when a fielder tags a runner and then loses the ball during the tag.

To me, you must maintain control after the tag of the base or the runner. I don't read anything different in the definition of Tag between tagging the base or tagging the runner.

And I would agree with you, if you did call the out on this play you will have an offensive coach headed for the parking lot. But, as I said this was presented at the ASA national school by one of the members of the national staff. As I recall their statement was the requirements for the physical tag of a runner and the tag of a base were not the same. For purposes of tagging the base as long as the fielder had demonstrated control prior to tagging the base, the out occured the instant the glove touched the base and the ball was lost after the out occured.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

As I recall their statement was the requirements for the physical tag of a runner and the tag of a base were not the same. For purposes of tagging the base as long as the fielder had demonstrated control prior to tagging the base, the out occured the instant the glove touched the base and the ball was lost after the out occured.

I still don't read anything in the Rule 1 definition of Tag that differentiates tagging a base or a runner with the ball in the hand or glove. Yes, you obviously can tag a base with any other part of the body, but that's not what we're talking about here.

If the fielder dives at the base with the ball in her bare hand, and when she contacts the base the ball immediately pops out of her grasp, I can't see how anyone would still rule an out. To me, she lost control the moment the ball contacted the bag; how can that be considered a legal tag?

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I still don't read anything in the Rule 1 definition of Tag that differentiates tagging a base or a runner with the ball in the hand or glove. Yes, you obviously can tag a base with any other part of the body, but that's not what we're talking about here.

If the fielder dives at the base with the ball in her bare hand, and when she contacts the base the ball immediately pops out of her grasp, I can't see how anyone would still rule an out. To me, she lost control the moment the ball contacted the bag; how can that be considered a legal tag?

Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA)
Rule 8, Section 2B (Batter-Runner is Out)

We have received several questions dealing with how long a fielder has to hold on to the ball on a force out if they tag a base or to retire the batter runner prior to reaching 1B. The ASA rules say that as long as the fielder has control of the ball and once they touch the base with the ball or any part of the body, the runner or batter-runner should be ruled out. The umpire must judge if the fielder had control of the ball when the base was correctly touched to have an out call.

Play:: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

RulingThis is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

[CecilOne]

Is it generally agreed (in cases like this) that when a collision is imminent and the defense is trying to make a play; that the offense (runner) is responsible for avoidance?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Is it generally agreed (in cases like this) that when a collision is imminent and the defense is trying to make a play; that the offense (runner) is responsible for avoidance?

No. Why?

The runner is responsible for not being malicious. (Heck, for that matter, so is the defense)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA)
Rule 8, Section 2B (Batter-Runner is Out)

We have received several questions dealing with how long a fielder has to hold on to the ball on a force out if they tag a base or to retire the batter runner prior to reaching 1B. The ASA rules say that as long as the fielder has control of the ball and once they touch the base with the ball or any part of the body, the runner or batter-runner should be ruled out. The umpire must judge if the fielder had control of the ball when the base was correctly touched to have an out call.

Play:: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

RulingThis is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

There isn't anything there that isn't true for tagging a player.
Here's my take: by rule, if you have contact for a split second during contact we have an out. On the field, I'm incapable of splitting hairs that fine. A player who has control of the ball can touch it against something and still maintain control of it. So if a player has the ball knocked out of her glove by tagging a player or a base I'm likely going to judge that she didn't have control of it before hitting the player or base. That's the same for a base or a player. For that matter, it's easier to maintain control when tagging a base.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This brings up a play presented at the national school. Hard ground ball to the right of F3. F3 fields the ball and its a race to the bag by both the batter/runner and F3. F3 dives for the base and tags it with the glove, but as she does the ball pops out. The ruling presented is the out stands as the out occured the instant F3 touched the base with the ball in her glove.

Question I have is, if the ball popped out of the glove as the base was being tagged, did F3 really have control of the ball?

That play happened in an NCAA game 2 or three years ago and was protested.
The ruling was the same as youi were told at the national school.

Yes, it is a hard sell. I was't sure of ASA's take on it, but (if I can believe waht you say , ASA agrees.....

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Amateur Softball Association of America (ASA)
Rule 8, Section 2B (Batter-Runner is Out)

We have received several questions dealing with how long a fielder has to hold on to the ball on a force out if they tag a base or to retire the batter runner prior to reaching 1B. The ASA rules say that as long as the fielder has control of the ball and once they touch the base with the ball or any part of the body, the runner or batter-runner should be ruled out. The umpire must judge if the fielder had control of the ball when the base was correctly touched to have an out call.

Play:: B2 slaps the pitch toward the right side of the infield and F3 fields the ball with their bare hand and dives for 1B. In the base umpire’s opinion, F3 has control of the ball and is holding the ball securely while diving on 1B and touching it with the ball. As soon as F3 touches 1B with the ball, the ball rolls loose into foul ground.

RulingThis is a judgment call by the umpire in regards to F3 having control of the ball when touching 1B. The runner should be ruled out if the umpire judged the fielder had possession of the ball at the time of touching the base, regardless of the ball coming loose after touching the base. The issue is control for that split second that the ball touches the base. If control is established when the fielder touches the base B2 would be out.

Freaking amazing.

I'll say it yet again: What's the difference between tagging a base with the ball in the hand or glove/mitt, and tagging a runner with the ball in the hand or glove/mitt, with respect to the definition of Tag in the rule book? To me, there is no distinction.

I guess I really have a problem rewarding a fielder who can't hold onto the ball in her hand or glove/mitt when placing a tag on an immobile base.

So if ASA wants this to be considered an out, then virtually everytime the ball comes out of the fielder's hand or glove/mitt when the tag is made on a runner, the ruling should be an out. After all, the definition of Tag does not provide a different criterion for control vis-a-vis touching a base or touching a runner.