Collision and base tagging

[Roman Konecny]

OBR (kids 10-12); Two out, R3; BR hits weak jumper between F3 and F4. F3 decided it was his job and make for it. Then turned back and noticing pitcher minding his job on mound runs to 1B. Step on 1B in the nick of time, so far so good, but his momentum brings him further and he collided with the BR just over 1B. F3 dropped the ball because of that collision at about a time when R3 has been celebrating winning run. BR was trying to avoid F3.
My rulling was safe, call it a game. You can imagine that defense manager has not been happy about it. I however somehow managed to leave the field with some degree of dignity ;-)

I based my rulling on:
6.05 A batter is out when (j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base
2.00 A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; ...
My rulling of 2.00 TAG in above case is that F3 has not been holding the ball securely. But I might be a bit WRONG on that.

I am an amateur umpires in europe and such as I have not much materials to study cases but OBR.
I had several discussion about above case with local 'more expirienced' umpires, but the decision they gave me was split to about half to half for safe/out.

Please gime me your oppinion on this play. Thanks. Sorry for my funny english.

[mbyron]

I was taught that a 'tag' is different depending on whether it's a force or tag play. For any play, fielder must have possession and voluntary release after tagging the runner. For a force play, the runner is out when the base is tagged, even if the fielder subsequently loses possession of the ball.

Technically, tagging 1B in advance of the runner is not a force play, but for purposes of this ruling you can treat it as one. In your situation if F3 has the ball securely the moment he steps on 1B, I've got BR out, run does not score, call it extra innings.

BTW, I agree with your non-call on interference/obstruction. F3 was not obstructing because he was making a play; BR did not interfere if the collision was not intentional.

[Gee]

It all comes down to your judgment. It appears from your post that you could clearly separate the tag and the collision. Assuming F3 had full possession at the time of the tag I have an out as post tag evidence is inadmissable.

If the tag and collision happened simultaneously then you have a 'no control at time of tag' and a safe but that didn't appear to happen here but again, it is your judgment. G.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Roman Konecny
OBR (kids 10-12); Two out, R3; BR hits weak jumper between F3 and F4. F3 decided it was his job and make for it. Then turned back and noticing pitcher minding his job on mound runs to 1B. Step on 1B in the nick of time, so far so good, but his momentum brings him further and he collided with the BR just over 1B. F3 dropped the ball because of that collision at about a time when R3 has been celebrating winning run. BR was trying to avoid F3.
My rulling was safe, call it a game. You can imagine that defense manager has not been happy about it. I however somehow managed to leave the field with some degree of dignity ;-)

I based my rulling on:
6.05 A batter is out when (j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base
2.00 A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; ...
My rulling of 2.00 TAG in above case is that F3 has not been holding the ball securely. But I might be a bit WRONG on that.

I am an amateur umpires in europe and such as I have not much materials to study cases but OBR.
I had several discussion about above case with local 'more expirienced' umpires, but the decision they gave me was split to about half to half for safe/out.

Please gime me your oppinion on this play. Thanks. Sorry for my funny english.

Roman, you may want to visit the site amateurumpires.com. There is a good article written by Brett McClearen under tech articles, words words. It does a good job of explaining the difference between a "catch" and "tag". Then you decide what call you will make the next time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Roman Konecny
]
I had several discussion about above case with local 'more expirienced' umpires, but the decision they gave me was split to about half to half for safe/out.

Just like your more experienced umpires, the "experts" are split on this. Some say the runner is out as soon as the base is tagged. Others say that F3 must hold on to the ball throughout the event.

Either way, one coach or the other is unhappy with the call.

[Roman Konecny]

First of all I would like to thanks all for answers and help. It looks like I have booted that call, luckily it was only semifinal ;-)
This is probably situation when the rules are not much fair because umpire has to, IMHO, make call against the side which does not make any fault. While the defense should clearly avoid this 'race for tag' play by standard 3-1 play offense did everything right. Not only defence played it wrong but also with a high risk of severe injury, especialy when the F3 was twice as big as BR. Although I normaly respect rules and fully agree with your interpretation, I am not sure if I call it as out next time in youth league. Maybe I'll just see the runner beat the tag. It is close enough play anyway.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Roman Konecny
First of all I would like to thanks all for answers and help. It looks like I have booted that call, luckily it was only semifinal ;-)
This is probably situation when the rules are not much fair because umpire has to, IMHO, make call against the side which does not make any fault. While the defense should clearly avoid this 'race for tag' play by standard 3-1 play offense did everything right. Not only defence played it wrong but also with a high risk of severe injury, especialy when the F3 was twice as big as BR. Although I normaly respect rules and fully agree with your interpretation, I am not sure if I call it as out next time in youth league. Maybe I'll just see the runner beat the tag. It is close enough play anyway.

Please don't interject personal opinions of what is right into your game. Call what you see, by the rules and their accepted interpretations or you will find yourself at the middle of controversy.

[kylejt]

"I am not sure if I call it as out next time in youth league"

You may not call it, but if the manager was doing his job properly your call would have been overturned by a protest commitee.

[greymule]

That's a tough one. As others have pointed out, umpires are of two schools on this. I've always believed that the fielder's obligation was to hang onto the ball, but that the requirements were not as strict as for a catch of a fly ball. If an outfielder catches a ball on the run and then after two steps crashes into a fielder and drops the ball, it's no catch. But if F3 caught a throw and the runner crashed into him after two more steps, I'd call it an out. One step? Half a step? HTBT.

And what of the other variations? Fielder has the ball, stumbles toward the base and then trips over it before the runner gets there. Then he falls, rolls over, and drops the ball. Safe or out? What if the runner collides with him during his fall?

What if the throw draws the fielder's arm into the runner, and a split second after the catch the collision jars the ball loose? I'd call that safe (as long as the runner was running as he was supposed to).

On the other hand, I do a lot of softball, and in that game that play is an out. ASA has specifically ruled that after a force play, a ball dropped as a result of a collision is still an out.