Bases loaded walk

[shagpal]

what reason did the PU provide to call the runner out?

Originally Posted by fdt92

JV game. Bases loaded walk. Runner from 3rd does not touch home. She starts heading to their dugout on the 1st base side about 5 feet from home and cuts in front of home. About the time she gets to the on deck circle, the coach for the defense yells to for her team to touch home. The runner comes back to touch home but the defense throws home first (catcher steps on the plate and also tags the girl before she touches home). PU calls her out.

What rule?

On any other base on a walk, if you pass the bag "you are assumed to have touched it" and are liable to be put out, but how does that work for home plate?

[MD Longhorn]

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

In ASA, this is clearly an out.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

In ASA, this is clearly an out.

There are several rules in play on this call.

First, as stated from the CB play, the player is awarded home plate because she was forced to advance on the award of first for a Base on balls.

Second, rule 8-3-4 states that when a runner has based a base, she is said to have touched it. It specifically adds "This also applies to awarded bases".


Third, the fact that a base on balls is a live ball in fast pitch.


Fourth, A live ball appeal is allowed for a runner missing a base.

This leads me to this conclusion: Since the awarded base was passed by the runner she is said to have touched the base, and since the ball is live after a base on balls an appeal on her missing the base can be granted as soon as she missed home plate, thus the umpire was correct in ruling the runner out on a live ball appeal.

This play is different than the case play in that in the case play, the out was made on a different runner, who arrived at and passed the base she was awarded and was then tagged out. In the case play, the runner awarded home had not yet touched home plate. A timing play can't occur on a player who is awarded he base, so the out counts, but since home was an award, the run counts as well.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

...A timing play can't occur on a player who is awarded he base, so the out counts, but since home was an award, the run counts as well.

That is illogical. Either the run scores (in which case the runner cannot be declared out), or the runner is declared out and the run does not score. A run cannot be scored by a runner who is out.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Dakota

That is illogical. Either the run scores (in which case the runner cannot be declared out), or the runner is declared out and the run does not score. A run cannot be scored by a runner who is out.

I worded it poorly. In the casebook play, the situation would be a timing player. The R2 is thrown out at 3rd base after advancing from second to third on a base on balls passing the base and being tagged out , however R1, who was on third had not yet scored. Since she was forced to advance on the base on balls, she is awarded home plate. The timing of R2 being thrown out, does not impact R1 scoring, since she was awarded home on a bases load base on balls.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To my mind, ASA has this one right, where FED does not. But given that the OP was FED, the runner from 3rd is AWARDED home (chap posts one of the places that shows FED feels this way), and on an award the runner must be given the opportunity to fix baserunning mistakes.

Rule or case play cite, please.

I agree with you on a dead ball appeal. There are plenty of case plays where a runner is awarded a base (or bases) when the ball is batted/thrown into DBT, and the runner is allowed to fix a base running mistake until she advances to and touches the base beyond the one where the mistake was made.

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion.

I repeat the play that I mentioned earlier that nobody has addressed:

Say the batter-runner overruns first base on a walk, and misses the base in the process. If the defense appeals her miss by either tagging her or the base before she returns, is she not subject to an Out call? If not, why not? What rule protects her here? And if she is subject to an Out call, why wouldn't the same be true at any other base, including home?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...There are plenty of case plays where a runner is awarded a base (or bases) when the ball is batted/thrown into DBT, and the runner is allowed to fix a base running mistake until she advances to and touches the base beyond the one where the mistake was made.

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion...

That would be because this is the only instance where a base award happens during a live ball.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

That would be because this is the only instance where a base award happens during a live ball.

This is not correct. Albeit, I've never seen the other case.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

This is not correct. Albeit, I've never seen the other case.

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

Yes I can, but I didn't in the first post to give everbody time to think. Handling the ball with detached equipment is a live ball award.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Can you name another instance? I believe tom is correct.

But let me suggest this

Is not a baserunner permitted to set their own basepath?

What if you have the runner taking a couple steps past home to pick up a discarded bat and then turn to touch the plate?

Not saying it is the smartest move in the world, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with it, either. Point is, where are you drawing the line?

Key word in your post. PASSED. Under Fed rules when she has PASSED a base she is said to have touched the base. For a runner coming from 3b home, there is a very clear line as to what past the base is. It is the first base line, which is nicely drawn on the field of play for everyone to see.

If the runner stays over toward the 3b dug out to pick up a bat then touches home we have a different situation because she has not passed home plate yet and at this point she is still allowed to set her own base path as no play can legally be made on her since she is getting an awarded base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But on a live ball appeal, where does it say this premise also holds true? I've never seen a case play that says that, and never heard of it until this discussion.

Given that the situation we're discussing is the ONLY time we have an awarded base during a live ball, I'd ask you the converse. Where does it say to treat this case differently than the other? It doesn't.

[jmkupka]

Another element of the OP is that the runner "cuts in front of home" on her way to the 1B dugout, so she should never be considered to have touched (passed) the base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Given that the situation we're discussing is the ONLY time we have an awarded base during a live ball, I'd ask you the converse. Where does it say to treat this case differently than the other? It doesn't.

Ok, so the batter receives Ball Four, and the pitch gets away from the catcher. The BR rounds first on her way to second base and makes it safely. The defensive coach instructs his team to do a Live Ball appeal at first because the BR missed first base (which she did). F2 throws the ball to first base and it gets away from F3 and goes down the right field line.

Is the BR allowed to go back and touch first? Or is she no longer able to because she advanced and touched second?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, so the batter receives Ball Four, and the pitch gets away from the catcher. The BR rounds first on her way to second base and makes it safely. The defensive coach instructs his team to do a Live Ball appeal at first because the BR missed first base (which she did). F2 throws the ball to first base and it gets away from F3 and goes down the right field line.

Is the BR allowed to go back and touch first? Or is she no longer able to because she advanced and touched second?

Second is not an awarded base in this case.