Run scores?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Not to put words in LI's mouth but.....
Knowing LI and having had the opportunity to work some games with him over the past few years in different venues and under different codes.....I have no doubt that he knows the rule.

I think perhaps(?) what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

No need to ask us here. The ASA and NCAA rule books talk of forces going away when the batter-runner is put out in a couple of places:

RS #1.J: "When the batter-runner is put out prior to reaching first base, all force outs are eliminated."

RS #1.K: "Tag-Ups. When a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retouch, this is considered a time play and not a force out. When the appeal is the third out, all runs scored in advance of the appealed runner and prior to the legal appeal count.

RS #21: "It is not possible to have a force out on a caught fly ball as the batter-runner is no longer a runner."

RS #43: "An appeal play on a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball is a time play, not a force. When the appeal results in the third out of an
inning, any run scored prior the appeal counts."

NCAA 7.1.5.3: "If the appeal is the third out, and is successfully made on a base runner not forced to advance at the time of the infraction, all runs scored by base runners before the legal appeal was made, would count. Note: If a base runner leaves a base before a fly ball is first touched and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out."

NCAA 12.28.6: "If a base runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by base runners in advance of the appealed base runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count."

I would add NFHS rulings, but since they apparently don't apply in NY, I wont bother.

If that "handful of umpires" won't believe LI after he shows them what's in the ASA and NCAA books, they sure as hell won't listen to us.

[Tru_in_Blu]

turd polishing
The act of trying to make something hopelessly weak and unattractive appear strong and appealing.

Unfortunately, there are umpires in our midsts that simply won't get much better. They either already know it all (and thus reject out of hand any constructive criticism), don't give a darn, or are part of that population that is virtually unconscious.

[LIUmp]

To explain a bit: I have been named the UIC and rules interpreter for our county high school softball association. I am relatively young, and have taken over for someone who had done the job for over 25 years. He resigned last year because he was beginning to get sick of trying to answer folks silly and obvious questions. He said to me that they don't read the rule book, and then will argue with the rules interpreter over little things that are SIMPLE.

My first charge is to change the culture in the association. I don't want, nor can't come across like a know-it-all. I figured if I posted the question, and then was able to show how many responses came back from umpires across the country saying what the ruling is and an explanation, it will show that: I will work to find answers for the "non-believers", and that I did NOT influence the responses. It's easy to say, Read the RULE book. But they don't. So, when a situation comes up, I hope to post it and get a response so I can share it with the masses.

It's a way to build some form of credibility. Plus, not only do I have to work WITH these same umpires, but I have to do what I can to LEAD them, and help them improve. Snapping back with a response, no matter whether I know the answer or not, will not work for some of these guys. Even when you SHOW them the rule, or explain the rationale....they will STILL argue it. So after saying what I said to 4 guys after a meeting we had, I told them I'd ask those who know about the rules because they help clarify them nationally. I took out my phone and posted the question, and got a response in 5 minutes. Thanks Rita. That's all I needed.

Most of out 150 umpires have no idea that I have national experience. Most of our 150 umpires don't care. To them, I'm still a young kid who took over for a legend and a long time mentor. And I have a LOT of work to do going forward.

To those who responded, thank you.

Thanks KJ - You hit the nail on the head.

[RKBUmp]

What about putting together a test of the most common rules they seem to be having trouble with and make it mandatory that all umpires take and pass the test if they want to work games?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

What about putting together a test of the most common rules they seem to be having trouble with and make it mandatory that all umpires take and pass the test if they want to work games?

Knowing the rules or knowing and applying the rules correctly? There is a big difference.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

I figured if I posted the question, and then was able to show how many responses came back from umpires across the country saying what the ruling is and an explanation, it will show that: I will work to find answers for the "non-believers", and that I did NOT influence the responses. It's easy to say, Read the RULE book. But they don't. So, when a situation comes up, I hope to post it and get a response so I can share it with the masses.

...Even when you SHOW them the rule, or explain the rationale....they will STILL argue it. So after saying what I said to 4 guys after a meeting we had, I told them I'd ask those who know about the rules because they help clarify them nationally.

If they are that stubborn that they won't believe what they read in the book, I still don't see how they are going to buy in on what other faceless "internet umpires" say.

From your first post, these guys believe a force exists after the batter-runner is put out on a caught fly ball. I quoted text from two rule books, ASA and NCAA, that explicitly contradicts their beliefs. You show them that text in those books for them to read. And they are really going to argue? And then you show them umpire discussion board responses that say they are wrong. They are going to believe that over black-and-white rulings in the books? Wow.

[MD Longhorn]

Manny, it's not as far-fetched as that. I've had numerous instances of showing someone (or a group) something in a book, having people not believe (or saying they interpret a pretty black and white rule differently, etc), and posting it here. There are 4-5 pretty high up ASA and FED muckimucks here, and most of us know who they are. If those people post something - it gets believed.

Human nature. Can't always predict it.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There are 4-5 pretty high up ASA and FED muckimucks here, and most of us know who they are. If those people post something - it gets believed.

Perhaps. But I'm guessing umpires who believe a live-ball appeal of a runner failing to tag up properly is a force out don't recognize the names of those muckimucks.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Perhaps. But I'm guessing umpires who believe a live-ball appeal of a runner failing to tag up properly is a force out don't recognize the names of those muckimucks.

You have a point!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

To those who responded, thank you.

Thanks KJ - You hit the nail on the head.

Anytime partner!

[PABlue]

I love what our Rules Interp did this year for our chapter. Handed out a copy of last years NFHS test and said, "Here's last years test, the next meeting is in two weeks, complete the test in that time frame, open book is fine. Your test must be turned in before you will be scheduled any games."
Most guys did the test open book and that's what he wanted because they had to dig thru the book to get answers. Better for a lot of guys who try to read the book from front to back and get bored halfway thru and then quit. It did well for us and gave a base line on the most missed questions so we could work on those problem areas.
Just a hint if you have your guys do this, have them place the rule citation number beside each answer to justify their answer. Then you can see where their thought process lies.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

What about putting together a test of the most common rules they seem to be having trouble with and make it mandatory that all umpires take and pass the test if they want to work games?

Problem I think most group would have with a rule like this is that they NEED those "dunderheads" to be able to cover all the games.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

Problem I think most group would have with a rule like this is that they NEED those "dunderheads" to be able to cover all the games.

Based on my recent experience, they may be better off just grabbing some random person out of the stands and have them umpire the game. They may actually know more of the rules than some supposed umpires.

[RulesGeek]

Originally Posted by Manny A

RS #43: "An appeal play on a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball is a time play, not a force. When the appeal results in the third out of an
inning, any run scored prior the appeal counts."

NCAA 7.1.5.3: "If the appeal is the third out, and is successfully made on a base runner not forced to advance at the time of the infraction, all runs scored by base runners before the legal appeal was made, would count. Note: If a base runner leaves a base before a fly ball is first touched and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out."

Situation: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, R1 scores but left the base an instant before the catch. R2 tags up legally and advances to 3rd. On the play on R1 at HP, the ball is overthrown but stays in play. R2 scores. On appeal at 3rd base, R1 is out for 3rd out but since R2 socred before the out her run counts. Even though the runner ahead of her is put out for out #3. Is this correct?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RulesGeek

Situation: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, R1 scores but left the base an instant before the catch. R2 tags up legally and advances to 3rd. On the play on R1 at HP, the ball is overthrown but stays in play. R2 scores. On appeal at 3rd base, R1 is out for 3rd out but since R2 socred before the out her run counts. Even though the runner ahead of her is put out for out #3. Is this correct?

Try the section in your rule book that starts with:

No run shall be scored if the third out of an inning is the result of: ..............

NCAA 6.1.3, ASA 5.5-B