Run scores?

[LIUmp]

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, R4 on 1st. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, they throw back to first to get R4 who never tagged and was going back to base but didn't make it in time. R1 crossed the plate before the legal appeal of R4. Run scores, right?

I have a handful of umpires who are saying it's a force out and no runs can score on a force out. I say it's not a force out, it's an appeal play and a timing play.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, R4 on 1st. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, they throw back to first to get R4 who never tagged and was going back to base but didn't make it in time. R1 crossed the plate before the legal appeal of R4. Run scores, right?

Yes it does.

Rita

[shagpal]

the force was removed when the fly ball was caught.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Your handful of umpires should turn in their indicators and ride off into the campfire.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, R4 on 1st. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, they throw back to first to get R4 who never tagged and was going back to base but didn't make it in time. R1 crossed the plate before the legal appeal of R4. Run scores, right?

I have a handful of umpires who are saying it's a force out and no runs can score on a force out. I say it's not a force out, it's an appeal play and a timing play.

You have a handful of pretenders, not umpires.

[EsqUmp]

2011 NYSSO TEST

84. R3 is on 3rd base and R1 is on 1st base with one out when B1 hits a fly ball to right field. When F9 catches the fly ball, R3 legally tags up and scores before R1 is retired returning to 1st base:
a. No runs wills score on that double play and the inning is over
b. The out on R1 at 1st base is a force out
c. The play stands and the inning is over but the run by R3 counts
d. R3’s run is nullified because of the force out on R1 at 1st base

[CecilOne]

Where does anyone get the idea that it is a force out?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Where does anyone get the idea that it is a force out?

The thought process of 1) not reading any definitions beacuse they already "know" the game, and 2) if you don't have to tag the runner, just the base, it must be a "force".

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The thought process of 1) not reading any definitions beacuse they already "know" the game, and 2) if you don't have to tag the runner, just the base, it must be a "force".

And the hands are part of the bat.

[Manny A]

LI, with all those credentials in your signature block, including NCAA, did you really have any doubts? Your question is the classic example used in virtually every clinic, and written in every set of case books and approved rulings on what constitutes a timing play.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

LI, with all those credentials in your signature block, including NCAA, did you really have any doubts? Your question is the classic example used in virtually every clinic, and written in every set of case books and approved rulings on what constitutes a timing play.

Not to put words in LI's mouth but.....
Knowing LI and having had the opportunity to work some games with him over the past few years in different venues and under different codes.....I have no doubt that he knows the rule.

I think perhaps(?) what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Your handful of umpires should turn in their indicators and ride off into the campfire.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You have a handful of pretenders, not umpires.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Umpiring 101. Those guys should all have to go back and repeat the class.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

...what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

Well, he probably won't show it to them without some editing, I'd guess!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, he probably won't show it to them without some editing, I'd guess!

Why not?? Can't continue to polish the turd(s).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Why not?? Can't continue to polish the turd(s).

Insults / name-calling are not the only alternative, you know. He does (presumably) still have to work with them.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Not to put words in LI's mouth but.....
Knowing LI and having had the opportunity to work some games with him over the past few years in different venues and under different codes.....I have no doubt that he knows the rule.

I think perhaps(?) what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

No need to ask us here. The ASA and NCAA rule books talk of forces going away when the batter-runner is put out in a couple of places:

RS #1.J: "When the batter-runner is put out prior to reaching first base, all force outs are eliminated."

RS #1.K: "Tag-Ups. When a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retouch, this is considered a time play and not a force out. When the appeal is the third out, all runs scored in advance of the appealed runner and prior to the legal appeal count.

RS #21: "It is not possible to have a force out on a caught fly ball as the batter-runner is no longer a runner."

RS #43: "An appeal play on a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball is a time play, not a force. When the appeal results in the third out of an
inning, any run scored prior the appeal counts."

NCAA 7.1.5.3: "If the appeal is the third out, and is successfully made on a base runner not forced to advance at the time of the infraction, all runs scored by base runners before the legal appeal was made, would count. Note: If a base runner leaves a base before a fly ball is first touched and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out."

NCAA 12.28.6: "If a base runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by base runners in advance of the appealed base runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count."

I would add NFHS rulings, but since they apparently don't apply in NY, I wont bother.

If that "handful of umpires" won't believe LI after he shows them what's in the ASA and NCAA books, they sure as hell won't listen to us.