Run scores?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

LI, with all those credentials in your signature block, including NCAA, did you really have any doubts? Your question is the classic example used in virtually every clinic, and written in every set of case books and approved rulings on what constitutes a timing play.

Not to put words in LI's mouth but.....
Knowing LI and having had the opportunity to work some games with him over the past few years in different venues and under different codes.....I have no doubt that he knows the rule.

I think perhaps(?) what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Your handful of umpires should turn in their indicators and ride off into the campfire.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You have a handful of pretenders, not umpires.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Umpiring 101. Those guys should all have to go back and repeat the class.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

...what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

Well, he probably won't show it to them without some editing, I'd guess!

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, he probably won't show it to them without some editing, I'd guess!

Why not?? Can't continue to polish the turd(s).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Why not?? Can't continue to polish the turd(s).

Insults / name-calling are not the only alternative, you know. He does (presumably) still have to work with them.

[Tru_in_Blu]

turd polishing
The act of trying to make something hopelessly weak and unattractive appear strong and appealing.

Unfortunately, there are umpires in our midsts that simply won't get much better. They either already know it all (and thus reject out of hand any constructive criticism), don't give a darn, or are part of that population that is virtually unconscious.

[LIUmp]

To explain a bit: I have been named the UIC and rules interpreter for our county high school softball association. I am relatively young, and have taken over for someone who had done the job for over 25 years. He resigned last year because he was beginning to get sick of trying to answer folks silly and obvious questions. He said to me that they don't read the rule book, and then will argue with the rules interpreter over little things that are SIMPLE.

My first charge is to change the culture in the association. I don't want, nor can't come across like a know-it-all. I figured if I posted the question, and then was able to show how many responses came back from umpires across the country saying what the ruling is and an explanation, it will show that: I will work to find answers for the "non-believers", and that I did NOT influence the responses. It's easy to say, Read the RULE book. But they don't. So, when a situation comes up, I hope to post it and get a response so I can share it with the masses.

It's a way to build some form of credibility. Plus, not only do I have to work WITH these same umpires, but I have to do what I can to LEAD them, and help them improve. Snapping back with a response, no matter whether I know the answer or not, will not work for some of these guys. Even when you SHOW them the rule, or explain the rationale....they will STILL argue it. So after saying what I said to 4 guys after a meeting we had, I told them I'd ask those who know about the rules because they help clarify them nationally. I took out my phone and posted the question, and got a response in 5 minutes. Thanks Rita. That's all I needed.

Most of out 150 umpires have no idea that I have national experience. Most of our 150 umpires don't care. To them, I'm still a young kid who took over for a legend and a long time mentor. And I have a LOT of work to do going forward.

To those who responded, thank you.

Thanks KJ - You hit the nail on the head.

[RKBUmp]

What about putting together a test of the most common rules they seem to be having trouble with and make it mandatory that all umpires take and pass the test if they want to work games?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

I figured if I posted the question, and then was able to show how many responses came back from umpires across the country saying what the ruling is and an explanation, it will show that: I will work to find answers for the "non-believers", and that I did NOT influence the responses. It's easy to say, Read the RULE book. But they don't. So, when a situation comes up, I hope to post it and get a response so I can share it with the masses.

...Even when you SHOW them the rule, or explain the rationale....they will STILL argue it. So after saying what I said to 4 guys after a meeting we had, I told them I'd ask those who know about the rules because they help clarify them nationally.

If they are that stubborn that they won't believe what they read in the book, I still don't see how they are going to buy in on what other faceless "internet umpires" say.

From your first post, these guys believe a force exists after the batter-runner is put out on a caught fly ball. I quoted text from two rule books, ASA and NCAA, that explicitly contradicts their beliefs. You show them that text in those books for them to read. And they are really going to argue? And then you show them umpire discussion board responses that say they are wrong. They are going to believe that over black-and-white rulings in the books? Wow.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

To those who responded, thank you.

Thanks KJ - You hit the nail on the head.

Anytime partner!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Not to put words in LI's mouth but.....
Knowing LI and having had the opportunity to work some games with him over the past few years in different venues and under different codes.....I have no doubt that he knows the rule.

I think perhaps(?) what he was trying to accomplish in writing the post the way he did was to be able to show the "handful of umpires" in his local association who are being stubborn and obstinate with him about this sitch being a force play our replies to his question as a way to illustrate to these dunderheads just how wrong they all are about a very basic rule.

No need to ask us here. The ASA and NCAA rule books talk of forces going away when the batter-runner is put out in a couple of places:

RS #1.J: "When the batter-runner is put out prior to reaching first base, all force outs are eliminated."

RS #1.K: "Tag-Ups. When a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retouch, this is considered a time play and not a force out. When the appeal is the third out, all runs scored in advance of the appealed runner and prior to the legal appeal count.

RS #21: "It is not possible to have a force out on a caught fly ball as the batter-runner is no longer a runner."

RS #43: "An appeal play on a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball is a time play, not a force. When the appeal results in the third out of an
inning, any run scored prior the appeal counts."

NCAA 7.1.5.3: "If the appeal is the third out, and is successfully made on a base runner not forced to advance at the time of the infraction, all runs scored by base runners before the legal appeal was made, would count. Note: If a base runner leaves a base before a fly ball is first touched and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out."

NCAA 12.28.6: "If a base runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by base runners in advance of the appealed base runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal would count."

I would add NFHS rulings, but since they apparently don't apply in NY, I wont bother.

If that "handful of umpires" won't believe LI after he shows them what's in the ASA and NCAA books, they sure as hell won't listen to us.

[RulesGeek]

Originally Posted by Manny A

RS #43: "An appeal play on a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball is a time play, not a force. When the appeal results in the third out of an
inning, any run scored prior the appeal counts."

NCAA 7.1.5.3: "If the appeal is the third out, and is successfully made on a base runner not forced to advance at the time of the infraction, all runs scored by base runners before the legal appeal was made, would count. Note: If a base runner leaves a base before a fly ball is first touched and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a timing play and not a force out."

Situation: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, R1 scores but left the base an instant before the catch. R2 tags up legally and advances to 3rd. On the play on R1 at HP, the ball is overthrown but stays in play. R2 scores. On appeal at 3rd base, R1 is out for 3rd out but since R2 socred before the out her run counts. Even though the runner ahead of her is put out for out #3. Is this correct?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RulesGeek

Situation: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd. 1 out. Fly ball hit to F9 caught for 2nd out, R1 scores but left the base an instant before the catch. R2 tags up legally and advances to 3rd. On the play on R1 at HP, the ball is overthrown but stays in play. R2 scores. On appeal at 3rd base, R1 is out for 3rd out but since R2 socred before the out her run counts. Even though the runner ahead of her is put out for out #3. Is this correct?

Try the section in your rule book that starts with:

No run shall be scored if the third out of an inning is the result of: ..............

NCAA 6.1.3, ASA 5.5-B

[RulesGeek]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Try the section in your rule book that starts with:

No run shall be scored if the third out of an inning is the result of: ..............

NCAA 6.1.3, ASA 5.5-B

Thanks. I got hung up on the language "When the appeal results in the third out ... any run scored prior to the appeal counts."