Batter throwing the bat

[CecilOne]

Any throw in a dangerous manner in any direction, hitting anyone not needed, gets a verbal caution to the coach with me handing him/her the bat.
Next time, unless much less dangerous, RTB.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Any throw in a dangerous manner in any direction, hitting anyone not needed, gets a verbal caution to the coach with me handing him/her the bat.
Next time, unless much less dangerous, RTB.

Not trying to be difficult here, but is there a rules justification for the RTB ?

[MD Longhorn]

Unless you're working Little League Baseball ... or your local league has a rule regarding thrown bats ...

THERE IS NO RULES JUSTIFICATION for anything being discussed here when a bat is thrown carelessly. No restrict to bench. No warning. No eject the next guy who does it. Nothing.

I know most of us WANT there to be something to let us inflict revenge on the guy that dented our shinguards (or worse, the catcher's). But there isn't.

(If the thrown bat interferes with play, by all means follow that rule - but even there, no RTB or ejection is applicable).

[BretMan]

It seems like some posts in this thread are maybe mixing in FED rules, where a team warning and bench restriction does come into play.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BretMan

It seems like some posts in this thread are maybe mixing in FED rules, where a team warning and bench restriction does come into play.

In my situation it was Fed rules, which do cover a carelessly released bat and a dangerously thrown bat.

[MD Longhorn]

Sorry ... my ASA/NCAA is showing...

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Unless you're working Little League Baseball ... or your local league has a rule regarding thrown bats ...

THERE IS NO RULES JUSTIFICATION for anything being discussed here when a bat is thrown carelessly. No restrict to bench. No warning. No eject the next guy who does it. Nothing.

I know most of us WANT there to be something to let us inflict revenge on the guy that dented our shinguards (or worse, the catcher's). But there isn't.

(If the thrown bat interferes with play, by all means follow that rule - but even there, no RTB or ejection is applicable).

Thanks. The board comes through again.

I spoke to a couple of my fellow ASA blues and they ran the gamut from ejection, warnings, and outs.

I really do appreciate the board and its members.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Unless you're working Little League Baseball ... or your local league has a rule regarding thrown bats ...

THERE IS NO RULES JUSTIFICATION for anything being discussed here when a bat is thrown carelessly. No restrict to bench. No warning. No eject the next guy who does it. Nothing.

I know most of us WANT there to be something to let us inflict revenge on the guy that dented our shinguards (or worse, the catcher's). But there isn't.

(If the thrown bat interferes with play, by all means follow that rule - but even there, no RTB or ejection is applicable).

Actually your words will be justification to handle this situation.

As you stated, there is no rules justification to handle this in any way.

Rule 10-1 Power and Duties

.... "The plate umpire shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically covered in these rules" ....

Rule supplement 52 covers

1) a bat thrown in anger

2) a bat that slips from a players hands

3) a batter-runner carrying a bat.

This rule does not cover a bat which does not slip from a batters hands, but is careless discarded by the batter. Therefore an umpire could apply the portion of rule 10-1 as this is not specifically covered in the rules.

Now in a practical sense. The first time the bat comes back and hits myself or the catcher, I would think the bat slipped from the catchers hands, and therefore unless it interferes with play, no penalty would be issued. The second time it happens, it is much less likely to have slipped from the batters hands (under normal circumstances). If it happens a third, fourth or fifth time in a game, then I would seriously question if this was not in fact an intentional act, and could handle this under rule 10-1, since a carelessly discarded bat is not specifically covered under the rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Rule supplement 52 covers

1) a bat thrown in anger

2) a bat that slips from a players hands

3) a batter-runner carrying a bat.

This rule does not cover a bat which does not slip from a batters hands, but is careless discarded by the batter. Therefore an umpire could apply the portion of rule 10-1 as this is not specifically covered in the rules.

This is not correct... what you're calling "careless discarded by the batter" is EXACTLY what is meant by "a bat that slips from a players hands".

ASA is very clear that this is not a penalizable event.

Also ... if you trot out 10-1 in your career more than once, you're almost definitely overusing it. That is meant for the truly unforseeable event - not for something we see in any 10U league multiple times a year. Any event that you've ever seen in your games more than a time or two is forseeable. ASA is not so blind to the actualities of a game to have not thought to cover a batter throwing a bat as in the OP... if they wanted that penalized, there would be a penalty.

(PS - I've said this before... my singular 10-1 moment in 21 years (this includes never using rule 9 in baseball - same rule) was a truck that was put into gear and rolled over my right field fence (driverless!) while play was live - the truck eventually rolled into fair ball territory before getting stopped. It scared the crap out of both teams - we killed play and placed runners where we thought they should go.)

[MD Longhorn]

PS - if you ever get to the point that you think it's intentional, you have other rules to use to address the situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking any association where there is no rule, he is what I have done or tell umpires to do when it just gets too dangerous.

Nothing, except tell the coach that player is not allowed to play any longer in that game.

Once is an accident, twice maybe a problem, thrice is DEFINITELY a problem. Tell the coach that if the player cannot learn to NOT discard the bat in a dangerous manner, you are going to need a substitute. Most likely the coach will think you are going to throw her out and tell her or others that.

What you are actually doing is just not allowing that player to play and letting the coach take charge of his/her player. You are not ejecting the player, you just are not going to allow a dangerous situation in which other players may get hurt to continue.

There are a lot of instances that occur on a ball field for which the players and coaches and umpire must assume responsibility of awareness and the particular risks and electing to participate under those conditions. An uncontrolled and inappropriate discarding of the bat is not one of them.

When you are told you cannot do that, remind that individual that there is nothing requiring you or the other team need to stand there an take it, either. I am more than willing to walk away from a game in this circumstance as opposed to take a bat in the hear or wait for an ambulance to haul a player off the field because I didn't.

No rule, no rule supplement, no clarification, just how I would handle this situation.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is not correct... what you're calling "careless discarded by the batter" is EXACTLY what is meant by "a bat that slips from a players hands".

ASA is very clear that this is not a penalizable event.

Also ... if you trot out 10-1 in your career more than once, you're almost definitely overusing it. That is meant for the truly unforseeable event - not for something we see in any 10U league multiple times a year. Any event that you've ever seen in your games more than a time or two is forseeable. ASA is not so blind to the actualities of a game to have not thought to cover a batter throwing a bat as in the OP... if they wanted that penalized, there would be a penalty.

(PS - I've said this before... my singular 10-1 moment in 21 years (this includes never using rule 9 in baseball - same rule) was a truck that was put into gear and rolled over my right field fence (driverless!) while play was live - the truck eventually rolled into fair ball territory before getting stopped. It scared the crap out of both teams - we killed play and placed runners where we thought they should go.)

Actually, under the a legal definition, 10-1 applies to ANYTHING, which is not specifically covered in the rule book. In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

You may thing the rules are as clear as day, but when you have a lawyer umpiring (as we do in our league), you will find the little ifs and butts that are not as legally clear as the rules seem to be. This is one of these cases.

He is actually the one who suggested that 10-1 could apply if an umpire deems the act not accidental (slipping from the hands), but careless.

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Actually, under the a legal definition, 10-1 applies to ANYTHING, which is not specifically covered in the rule book. In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

You may thing the rules are as clear as day, but when you have a lawyer umpiring (as we do in our league), you will find the little ifs and butts that are not as legally clear as the rules seem to be. This is one of these cases.

He is actually the one who suggested that 10-1 could apply if an umpire deems the act not accidental (slipping from the hands), but careless.

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

You are going to lose this argument and the protest.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

A) No offense, but you're dead wrong about everything I deleted.
B) This is a RULEBOOK. Not a set of laws. Your lawyer umpire needs to lawyer when he's a lawyer, and umpire when he's an umpire. If the rulebook were written as a law book is, it would be 10,000 pages long. If you think there's a nook and cranny that you need to get an interpretation for, by all means ask someone ... but don't assume that every single nook and cranny should be covered by 10.1.

That said... to your ridiculous comment that "the ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable" ... what do you think the words, "Should the bat slip from the batter's hands, there is no penalty..." mean?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

Hmmm, I always thought that when a bat slips from the batter's hands, it's because he/she is being careless when he/she swings it. If there was some distinction, the rule books would separate the two, wouldn't they?

But they don't:

- The FED rule book only refers to a bat that is carelessly discarded. There is no mention of the bat slipping from the batter's hand.
- The ASA rule book only refers to a bat that slips from the batter's hand. There is no mention of a carelessly discarded bat.
- The NCAA rule book only refers to a bat that is released or thrown unintentionally. There is no mention of the bat slipping from the batter's hand.

I'd like to know how a slipped bat, a carelessly discarded bat, and a released or unintentionally thrown bat, are all different situations.