Batter throwing the bat

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This is not correct... what you're calling "careless discarded by the batter" is EXACTLY what is meant by "a bat that slips from a players hands".

ASA is very clear that this is not a penalizable event.

Also ... if you trot out 10-1 in your career more than once, you're almost definitely overusing it. That is meant for the truly unforseeable event - not for something we see in any 10U league multiple times a year. Any event that you've ever seen in your games more than a time or two is forseeable. ASA is not so blind to the actualities of a game to have not thought to cover a batter throwing a bat as in the OP... if they wanted that penalized, there would be a penalty.

(PS - I've said this before... my singular 10-1 moment in 21 years (this includes never using rule 9 in baseball - same rule) was a truck that was put into gear and rolled over my right field fence (driverless!) while play was live - the truck eventually rolled into fair ball territory before getting stopped. It scared the crap out of both teams - we killed play and placed runners where we thought they should go.)

Actually, under the a legal definition, 10-1 applies to ANYTHING, which is not specifically covered in the rule book. In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

You may thing the rules are as clear as day, but when you have a lawyer umpiring (as we do in our league), you will find the little ifs and butts that are not as legally clear as the rules seem to be. This is one of these cases.

He is actually the one who suggested that 10-1 could apply if an umpire deems the act not accidental (slipping from the hands), but careless.

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking any association where there is no rule, he is what I have done or tell umpires to do when it just gets too dangerous.

Nothing, except tell the coach that player is not allowed to play any longer in that game.

Once is an accident, twice maybe a problem, thrice is DEFINITELY a problem. Tell the coach that if the player cannot learn to NOT discard the bat in a dangerous manner, you are going to need a substitute. Most likely the coach will think you are going to throw her out and tell her or others that.

What you are actually doing is just not allowing that player to play and letting the coach take charge of his/her player. You are not ejecting the player, you just are not going to allow a dangerous situation in which other players may get hurt to continue.

There are a lot of instances that occur on a ball field for which the players and coaches and umpire must assume responsibility of awareness and the particular risks and electing to participate under those conditions. An uncontrolled and inappropriate discarding of the bat is not one of them.

When you are told you cannot do that, remind that individual that there is nothing requiring you or the other team need to stand there an take it, either. I am more than willing to walk away from a game in this circumstance as opposed to take a bat in the hear or wait for an ambulance to haul a player off the field because I didn't.

No rule, no rule supplement, no clarification, just how I would handle this situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Actually, under the a legal definition, 10-1 applies to ANYTHING, which is not specifically covered in the rule book. In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

You may thing the rules are as clear as day, but when you have a lawyer umpiring (as we do in our league), you will find the little ifs and butts that are not as legally clear as the rules seem to be. This is one of these cases.

He is actually the one who suggested that 10-1 could apply if an umpire deems the act not accidental (slipping from the hands), but careless.

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

You are going to lose this argument and the protest.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, you are wrong in another regard. The ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable, as you state. It just does not specify a penalty for the act of a carelessly discarded bat. There is a big difference, and when discussing it with a lawyer, those little differences come out.

A) No offense, but you're dead wrong about everything I deleted.
B) This is a RULEBOOK. Not a set of laws. Your lawyer umpire needs to lawyer when he's a lawyer, and umpire when he's an umpire. If the rulebook were written as a law book is, it would be 10,000 pages long. If you think there's a nook and cranny that you need to get an interpretation for, by all means ask someone ... but don't assume that every single nook and cranny should be covered by 10.1.

That said... to your ridiculous comment that "the ASA book does not, in any way, shape or form, say that a carelessly discarded bat is not penalizable" ... what do you think the words, "Should the bat slip from the batter's hands, there is no penalty..." mean?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Nothing, except tell the coach that player is not allowed to play any longer in that game.

What do you do if the teams either using continous batting order or only have nine players? You would then be forcing the team to take an out in the first instance or forfeit in the second depending on ruleset.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

In this case, a carelessly discarded bat is not the same as a bat that slips from the hands.

Hmmm, I always thought that when a bat slips from the batter's hands, it's because he/she is being careless when he/she swings it. If there was some distinction, the rule books would separate the two, wouldn't they?

But they don't:

- The FED rule book only refers to a bat that is carelessly discarded. There is no mention of the bat slipping from the batter's hand.
- The ASA rule book only refers to a bat that slips from the batter's hand. There is no mention of a carelessly discarded bat.
- The NCAA rule book only refers to a bat that is released or thrown unintentionally. There is no mention of the bat slipping from the batter's hand.

I'd like to know how a slipped bat, a carelessly discarded bat, and a released or unintentionally thrown bat, are all different situations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

What do you do if the teams either using continous batting order or only have nine players? You would then be forcing the team to take an out in the first instance or forfeit in the second depending on ruleset.

No, I'm not forcing them to do anything. Anything that falls upon the team is caused directly by the actions, or lack thereof, of the team and coaches.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

....
Also ... if you trot out 10-1 in your career more than once, you're almost definitely overusing it. That is meant for the truly unforseeable event

This is from the baseball board, but it would be an instance where 10-1 may be appropriate....

Just when you think you've seen it all on an amateur ball field...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

This is from the baseball board, but it would be an instance where 10-1 may be appropriate....

Just when you think you've seen it all on an amateur ball field...

Yup, I'll give you that.