Look Back Rule

[jmkupka]

Look Back Rule - YouTube

Please take a look at :40 sec. In the context of the rest of the video, this is described as a violation of the LBR.

I see this as a play by the pitcher, and if the runner was between bases I'd definitely drop the LBR. Since the runner is on 1st at this point, I wanted to hear your feedback. Does a "play" (assuming you consider this a play) release the runner from the base?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Look Back Rule - YouTube

Please take a look at :40 sec. In the context of the rest of the video, this is described as a violation of the LBR.

I see this as a play by the pitcher, and if the runner was between bases I'd definitely drop the LBR. Since the runner is on 1st at this point, I wanted to hear your feedback. Does a "play" (assuming you consider this a play) release the runner from the base?

If there is a play, the LBR does not apply.

At first it looks like the pitcher was just lowering her hand after catching the ball. At :43, looks like a play.
Too bad the video does not show the pitcher the whole time or even a full shot.

[MD Longhorn]

There is no chance that's a "play".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no chance that's a "play".

I agree. The pitcher was simply holding the ball. IMO, no play was made on any of the scenarios which were offered where the umpire ruled the runner out.

OTOH, the effective point of the LBR was offered only in part. The LBR is in effect not only once the BR reaches 1B with the ball in the circle, but also if the BR is retired and the ball is in the circle.

And before someone picks a nit, "in the circle" refers to the pitcher having possession of the ball with both feet on or within the lines of the circle.

[jmkupka]

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

I'm not sure I understand your point. If you feel she's making a play when the runner is between first and second, then you should also judge she's making a play while the runner is on the base. It shouldn't matter where the runner was at the time the pitcher attempts a play.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

If you are dropping your LBR for a runner between bases, why wouldn't you for a runner on a base. Either the pitcher made a play or she didn't.

[jmkupka]

you're right, the criteria is the same. Just never had it happen. But I did find a thread from 2008 (started by Mr. Rowe in fact) dealing with that exact thing.

My OP was really focusing on, who here feels the pitcher's action of bringing the ball to shoulder height constitutes a "play".

I think it does, two of my cyber-mentors seem to feel otherwise

To Cecil: For the sake of clarity, I do mean the entire chain of events starting at :40

[RKBUmp]

I dont see what the pitcher did in that video as attempting to make a play. She never really brings the ball into a throwing position, she is just holding it up near shoulder height in front of her body.

[jmkupka]

Which is what 12-14 year-old catchers do 4-5 times, after every pitch, to chase a runner back to base before returning the ball to F1...

never cocked back behind them, just like a dart thrower next to their ear...

[RKBUmp]

cocked next to the ear and simply holding the ball around shoulder height are 2 completely different things.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

Well... if the runner is halfway, then she had better have been moving one way or another before F1 started this slight movement of the ball... and assuming she was - and still was when the pitcher raises the ball, then of course you wouldn't rule her out.

That said, let me be contrary in saying that I DO believe there's a difference between a player on base and not on base ... here's why. Two reasons...

1) The reason "a play" releases the runner from the requirements of the LBR (however briefly) is that it forces a runner between bases to make a decision based on that play --- do I continue, or is this play going to require me to return the other way. The runner already on base is not forced to make a decision as they are already on the base. That small action taken by the pitcher is not going to require the runner to react.

2) This movement by the pitcher, with a runner standing on a base, is not the prelude to some other action. There's no reason for the runner to fear the ball being thrown to first, or to react to it. But given a runner OFF the base, this movement by the pitcher IS (most likely) the prelude to some other action designed to get that runner out... and that, after all, is what a "play" is, isn't it?

[jmkupka]

at game speed, bringing it up quickly to shoulder height, and bringing it up quickly to ear height, is pretty close...

[jmkupka]

Good points Mike, and I feel that, despite the fact that the runner's responsibility (to her team) was to draw a reaction from the pitcher, (to release R1 from 3rd), she would not have left 1st if it wasn't for the action she saw.

Her instructions were probably to continue nonstop to 2nd, realized she screwed up when she reversed direction, then took off again when the pitcher's arm came up.

[VA-Blu]

Notice the runner on third break for Home and the pitcher start to make a play on that runner, if this happens then there is no LBR for the runner at 1B. At least that is my understanding. So based on that action I got NOTHING.

VA