Look Back Rule

[MD Longhorn]

There is no chance that's a "play".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no chance that's a "play".

I agree. The pitcher was simply holding the ball. IMO, no play was made on any of the scenarios which were offered where the umpire ruled the runner out.

OTOH, the effective point of the LBR was offered only in part. The LBR is in effect not only once the BR reaches 1B with the ball in the circle, but also if the BR is retired and the ball is in the circle.

And before someone picks a nit, "in the circle" refers to the pitcher having possession of the ball with both feet on or within the lines of the circle.

[jmkupka]

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

I'm not sure I understand your point. If you feel she's making a play when the runner is between first and second, then you should also judge she's making a play while the runner is on the base. It shouldn't matter where the runner was at the time the pitcher attempts a play.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

If you are dropping your LBR for a runner between bases, why wouldn't you for a runner on a base. Either the pitcher made a play or she didn't.

[jmkupka]

you're right, the criteria is the same. Just never had it happen. But I did find a thread from 2008 (started by Mr. Rowe in fact) dealing with that exact thing.

My OP was really focusing on, who here feels the pitcher's action of bringing the ball to shoulder height constitutes a "play".

I think it does, two of my cyber-mentors seem to feel otherwise

To Cecil: For the sake of clarity, I do mean the entire chain of events starting at :40

[RKBUmp]

I dont see what the pitcher did in that video as attempting to make a play. She never really brings the ball into a throwing position, she is just holding it up near shoulder height in front of her body.

[jmkupka]

Which is what 12-14 year-old catchers do 4-5 times, after every pitch, to chase a runner back to base before returning the ball to F1...

never cocked back behind them, just like a dart thrower next to their ear...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Thanks guys,
not to be repetitious, but if runner is halfway between 1st & 2nd and F1 raises the ball to shoulder level like she does at :43, I wouldn't ring up the runner.

Releasing her from standing on 1st could be a different story.

Well... if the runner is halfway, then she had better have been moving one way or another before F1 started this slight movement of the ball... and assuming she was - and still was when the pitcher raises the ball, then of course you wouldn't rule her out.

That said, let me be contrary in saying that I DO believe there's a difference between a player on base and not on base ... here's why. Two reasons...

1) The reason "a play" releases the runner from the requirements of the LBR (however briefly) is that it forces a runner between bases to make a decision based on that play --- do I continue, or is this play going to require me to return the other way. The runner already on base is not forced to make a decision as they are already on the base. That small action taken by the pitcher is not going to require the runner to react.

2) This movement by the pitcher, with a runner standing on a base, is not the prelude to some other action. There's no reason for the runner to fear the ball being thrown to first, or to react to it. But given a runner OFF the base, this movement by the pitcher IS (most likely) the prelude to some other action designed to get that runner out... and that, after all, is what a "play" is, isn't it?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well... if the runner is halfway, then she had better have been moving one way or another before F1 started this slight movement of the ball... and assuming she was - and still was when the pitcher raises the ball, then of course you wouldn't rule her out.

That said, let me be contrary in saying that I DO believe there's a difference between a player on base and not on base ... here's why. Two reasons...

1) The reason "a play" releases the runner from the requirements of the LBR (however briefly) is that it forces a runner between bases to make a decision based on that play --- do I continue, or is this play going to require me to return the other way. The runner already on base is not forced to make a decision as they are already on the base. That small action taken by the pitcher is not going to require the runner to react.

2) This movement by the pitcher, with a runner standing on a base, is not the prelude to some other action. There's no reason for the runner to fear the ball being thrown to first, or to react to it. But given a runner OFF the base, this movement by the pitcher IS (most likely) the prelude to some other action designed to get that runner out... and that, after all, is what a "play" is, isn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying a pitcher can't really make a "play" on a runner who is on the base?

If that's the case, I respectfully disagree. I don't see anything in the definition of play, with respect to the LBR, that says the runner has to be off the base. It just says it's an action by the pitcher that causes a reaction by the runner. The reaction could be preventing the runner from leaving the base in the first place, couldn't it?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying a pitcher can't really make a "play" on a runner who is on the base?

No... I'm definitely not saying that at all.

I'm disagreeing with the premise that if a certain movement is considered a play wrt a runner who is between bases that it MUST also be considered a play wrt a runner standing on a base.

To me, for the reasons mentioned, the criteria for "a play" are not identical regarding a runner on a base and a runner still running the bases. I do not mean to take that to the extreme, as you have inferred, and state that NO movement can possibly be a play if the runner is on a base. There can certainly be movements that would be considered a play even to a runner on base.

(In either case, though, I don't think the movement by the pitcher in the play at 40 seconds on the video constitutes a play.)

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I'm disagreeing with the premise that if a certain movement is considered a play wrt a runner who is between bases that it MUST also be considered a play wrt a runner standing on a base.

First things first: I agree with you that what this pitcher did in the video is not a play. Her slight arm lift may have been an effort to adjust her uniform sleeve for all we know.

That said, I still don't understand your point. If the pitcher does something to cause a runner to react, it shouldn't matter if the runner is on a base or in between them. I don't think we need to figure out what movements constitute a play under one circumstance and not the other.

Heck, one could counter-argue that a complete fake throw by the pitcher won't cause a runner on a base to do anything because the runner knows she's not in jeopardy, so that shouldn't be considered a play.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no chance that's a "play".

I completely agree that this is not a play on the runner. The ball is simply lifted to shoulder level. There is no additional movement of the arm faking a throw to any base on this play, thus not attempted play.

Had she actually made a motion towards the base with the arm, faking a throw, then you have a "play" being made, and the LBR is no longer in effect.

This was a topic discussed at one of my association meetings this season. What constitutes a play being made to release a runner from the LBR. The agreement was there needs to be some sort of motion towards the base the runner is occupying, or the base she is going to for the LBR to be removed. In that portion of the video, the only motion I see is a lifting of the ball, which on its own is not a play in my opinion.

Given that this was a NFHS video, I would think the opinion of the NHFS is that a play must involve more than just lifting the ball up as well.