Look Back Rule

[WestMichBlue]

R1 off 3B with the pitch; comes to a stop when batter does not swing. F2 steps out in front of plate and fakes throw towards 3B; R1 starts back to 3B.

Ball is returned to F1 in circle who turns and looks at R1. R1 stops and looks back at F1; then, within a second (or so) turns and continues back to 3B.

Would you allow that second stop? Or call R1 out?

WMB

[BigUmpJohn]

Orignially posted by WestMichBlue
R1 off 3B with the pitch; comes to a stop when batter does not swing. F2 steps out in front of plate and fakes throw towards 3B; R1 starts back to 3B.

Ball is returned to F1 in circle who turns and looks at R1. R1 stops and looks back at F1; then, within a second (or so) turns and continues back to 3B.

Would you allow that second stop? Or call R1 out?

WMB

I would think that since F1 didn't have the ball in the circle for the first stop of R1, that first stop wouldn't really be a stop. The second stop would be the first one in your situation, I think.

ASA Rule 8.7.T.1

The runner is out when a runner is legitmately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and WHILE THE PITCHER HAS CONTROL OF THE BALL within an eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

ASA POE 33B says the same thing just simplified.

I would allow the stop. I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

[greymule]

BigUmpJohn is 100% correct. The first stop, as well as anything else the runner does before F1 gets the ball in the circle, means absolutely nothing in terms of the look-back rule. See the ball in the circle in the possession of F1 (and make sure BR has reached 1B), then watch the runner.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
R1 off 3B with the pitch; comes to a stop when batter does not swing. F2 steps out in front of plate and fakes throw towards 3B; R1 starts back to 3B.

Ball is returned to F1 in circle who turns and looks at R1. R1 stops and looks back at F1; then, within a second (or so) turns and continues back to 3B.

Would you allow that second stop? Or call R1 out?

WMB

As the other guys have said, the "stop when batter does not swing" is before the LBR goes into effect, so it means nothing. The restrictions on the runner only go into effect when the rule goes into effect (pitcher has the ball in the circle, BR, if applicable, has achieved first). She can shuck and jive all she wants before that.

Another question, though... would you consider the F1 turning and looking at R1 to be making a play?

[SC Ump]

F1, if she "casually" turns and looks at a runner, has not made a play.

But as for the previous question... and yes, I know that from previous posts, I believe my opinion on this will be different than most on this board...

My understanding is that the player "may stop once". However, when the pitcher has received the ball and R1 has continued to third, she has made a commitment in returning. At that point she has given up her right to stop once.

Speaking FED, there is absolutely nothing I know of in the current rule book that supports my belief on this. The only support is the history of the look-back rule, at least in the history of it since 1990 when I got involved. Again, speaking FED, the rule just went through a major re-write that was supposedly for clarification and not content change. With the discussions generate in the two local organizations I am in, and on the couple of boards I visit, I would hope either wording or cases will be added to further clarify or to confirm that "content change" concerning this rule really was intended.

[TexBlue]

I agree with Dan. If I read the post right, the runner had already taken a few steps back to the base, after the ball was in the circle. To me, that is the commitment I've always looked for. If she stops again, without a play being made or faked, it's an out.

And the interpretation we got on the Fed rules are just ludicrous. I hope some of the situations involved don't come up on my field, because I'll have to enforce the rules, even if I highly disagree with the interpretation we are told to enforce.

Rick

[whiskers_ump]

Firt stop meant nothing, F2 not F1 had the ball and
fake.

I don't fell simply turing and looking as making a play, but
have seen worse interpretations of the rule. Hell, I know guys
that would have nailed runner on F2's fake, if runner stopped
then started back, then turned and started back when ball thrown
to F1.
In either case stated, I would not have an out.

JMO,
glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

I don't feel simply turning and looking as making a play, but
have seen worse interpretations of the rule.

JMO,
glen

That's the beauty of ASA's interpretation of a play.

Any act by the pitcher which in the umpire's judgment causes the runner to react is considered a play. No specific move or fake is required. It is pure umpire's judgment, but how is the umpire going to know to what the runner will react? Casually turning toward the runner and moving the ball to the bare hand could be considered an act to which the runner could react.

Ain't life grand!

[Dakota]

Originally posted by SC Ump
But as for the previous question...

Sorry, my bad for hijacking the thread. I do think the making a play issue with ASA's interp is an interesting discussion topic, but we should take it to another thread

and yes, I know that from previous posts, I believe my opinion on this will be different than most on this board...

My understanding is that the player "may stop once". However, when the pitcher has received the ball and R1 has continued to third, she has made a commitment in returning. At that point she has given up her right to stop once.

Speaking FED, there is absolutely nothing I know of in the current rule book that supports my belief on this. The only support is the history of the look-back rule, at least in the history of it since 1990 when I got involved. Again, speaking FED, the rule just went through a major re-write that was supposedly for clarification and not content change. With the discussions generate in the two local organizations I am in, and on the couple of boards I visit, I would hope either wording or cases will be added to further clarify or to confirm that "content change" concerning this rule really was intended.

Maybe for FED, but ASA is somewhat self-contradictory on this in the POE. This is not quite the same as the 2 stops question, but I can see ruling a LB violation based on commitment to 3rd.

ASA Rule 8-7T.1

When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate, the runner may stop once, ...

The runner in WMB's situation met all of the conditions here (legitimately off the base, etc.) Yet, ASA POE 33 says

If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out.

The runner also meets all of these conditions.

So, which is it? Is she allowed to stop? Or, is she required to continue non-stop?

[greymule]

. . . the runner had already taken a few steps back to the base, after the ball was in the circle. To me, that is the commitment I've always looked for. If she stops again, without a play being made or faked, it's an out.

Can't go along with you there. The first stop is irrelevant since the ball wasn't in the circle. The runner is allowed to change direction once after the pitcher gains possession of the ball in the circle. The runner may have been in motion when F1 got the ball, and the runner may have continued in that direction for several steps, but she is still allowed one stop, after which she can go either way.

It is true that POE #33 contains a sentence that apparently contradicts 8-7-T-1:

POE #33:

If a runner is moving toward a base, other than 1B, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out.

8-7-T-1:

When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a time at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball . . . the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

The problem with the sentence from the POE is that everyone knows of instances when it does not apply. For example, if a runner who has received a base on balls has rounded 1B and is moving toward 2B when F1 gets the ball, the runner can still continue to move toward 2B—even proceed to within an inch of 2B—and then stop, reverse direction, and return to 1B.

[CecilOne]

If you accept POE #33, then the runners in the original case and the latest by gm are both out. If you accept 8-7-T as written (while the pitcher has control of the ball . . . the runner may stop once) and accept that POE are not really rules, then the runner is safe.
I firmly believe that applying the SOTR gives the benefit of the doubt to the runner in all look-back cases. It is one of the worst possibilities for nit-picking. But then if all you care about is 42 and going home ...

[SamNVa]

As with most plays of this kind, this one is YAHTBT call. Personally I would allow the stop, but she had better be on the move pretty darn quickly, cause if she aint on the move by the time that I decide that the pitcher isn't making a play on her, then "Bam, she's out."

SamC

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I tend to agree with Sam and Dan. The purpose of the rule, as I understand it, is to prevent the offense from attracting, creating, or tempting the defense into making a play so that the offense can possibly advance a runner after the play is basically over (pitcher has the ball in the circle and would be preparing to deliver the next pitch if it weren't for the antics of the offense).

Runner returning to 3rd and then stops to do a little stare down with the pitcher... anything more than a very slight hesitation should be rewarded with an out. JMHO

The ASA POE #33 statement about approaching 1st "If a runner is moving toward a base, other than 1B," I assume means the intial approach of the BR and not the runner who has already passed 1st base and is now returning??? Anyone wish to clarify?

e.g. R1 & R3, pop up fly to pitcher, R1 steps a few steps off of 1st and stops to watch the catch, pitcher catches the ball in the circle, pitcher turns to look at off base R1, R1 while staring down with the pitcher begins movement toward 1st and then stops a couple steps short of the base. I feel R1 is tempting the pitcher to make a play (purportedly so R3 could score). Unless the pitcher makes some form of a play, I think the proper call is - R1 is out. R1 only began motion after the ball was in the possession of the pitcher in the circle and only stopped once after beginning that motion. I don't think that POE #33 should save this runner from enforcement of the Look-Back Rule just because they are headed BACK to 1st base... and I believe the LBR is appropriate for this type of situation.

[BigUmpJohn]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I tend to agree with Sam and Dan. The purpose of the rule, as I understand it, is to prevent the offense from attracting, creating, or tempting the defense into making a play so that the offense can possibly advance a runner after the play is basically over (pitcher has the ball in the circle and would be preparing to deliver the next pitch if it weren't for the antics of the offense).

Runner returning to 3rd and then stops to do a little stare down with the pitcher... anything more than a very slight hesitation should be rewarded with an out. JMHO

The ASA POE #33 statement about approaching 1st "If a runner is moving toward a base, other than 1B," I assume means the intial approach of the BR and not the runner who has already passed 1st base and is now returning??? Anyone wish to clarify?

e.g. R1 & R3, pop up fly to pitcher, R1 steps a few steps off of 1st and stops to watch the catch, pitcher catches the ball in the circle, pitcher turns to look at off base R1, R1 while staring down with the pitcher begins movement toward 1st and then stops a couple steps short of the base. I feel R1 is tempting the pitcher to make a play (purportedly so R3 could score). Unless the pitcher makes some form of a play, I think the proper call is - R1 is out. R1 only began motion after the ball was in the possession of the pitcher in the circle and only stopped once after beginning that motion. I don't think that POE #33 should save this runner from enforcement of the Look-Back Rule just because they are headed BACK to 1st base... and I believe the LBR is appropriate for this type of situation.

I agree with everything you just said. If the pitcher catches the ball in the circle, and R1 is stopped there staring at the pitcher, she doesn't get another stop.

However, in the original situation. The catcher had the ball as the runner was moving back to 3B. The pitcher then gets the ball and then R1 stops. I feel she is allowed this stop because the pitcher now has the ball in the circle according to 8.7.T.1. As Mike said, it's all judgment, though, so my interpretation may be different.

With the second question, turning and looking isn't a play, IMO. If the pitcher has the ball in their hand and is cocked back and ready to fire, then that's a play.

It's all judgment folks.

[MD Longhorn]

Think of it this way. Would you allow the runner to stop and go home? If not, she's out... but in this case, I believe you would. She's allowed to stop once - that's very clear in the rules. If the stop is brief, and she heads on to 3rd (or home for that matter), she's fine. It's the second stop that is illegal, and this girl didn't make a 2nd stop.

(As to the other scenario - if she's stopped when the ball is caught in the circle, that IS her first stop. She has to pick a direction and go that way without stopping again.)