Look Back Rule

[TERRY1]

Alright i know it is off season for most of us now and we are looking for ways to entertain ourselves so here goes. I just got the new issue of Referee (nov) in the mail. on page 29 there is article with play pics entitled " Pitcher Need Only Possess Ball in Circle" shows a senario of r2 on second and f1 with ball in glove and glove and ball stuck between here legs while she fixes here pony tail. says r2 breaks for 3rd and violates look-back rule and decladed out.
but same senario in article under softball @ eumpire.com called Don’t Look Back Now –It’s the Look Back Rule By Becky Davidson reads that this would not be considered control. i'm now confused which way would you call this? just wondering

[Dakota]

I haven't seen either article, so I can't comment on the specific articles. However...

My ASA book doesn't use the word "control."

Between the rule (8-8-T) and the POE (29) it uses the phrase "has the ball" 6 times, "has possession of the ball" 1 time, "receives the ball" 1 time, "in possession of the ball" 1 time, and "holds the ball" 1 time.

Once the lookback rule is in effect, the runner is released if the pitcher a) makes a play; b) drops the ball; c) leaves the circle; or d) pitches the ball. I don't see where it says the pitcher must have the ball in her hands, and holding the ball with her knees is not any of the things that will release the runners.

Are both authors using the same rules? Other codes may differ from ASA.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Dakota.......

Don't forget the wording from the ASA POE which says......

The responsibility is completely on the runner. There is no obligation on the pitcher to look, fake or throw.

Also see B in the POE.....

Once the runner has returned or stops at any base for any reason, he will be declared out if he leaves said base.

EXCEPTION: A runner will not be declared out if:
1. A play is made on him or another runner.
2. The pitcher leaves the circle or drops the ball, or
3. The pitcher releases the ball to the batter.

I don't see anything in this instance........therefore.....I've got an OUT.

Joel

I do not know the NCAA interp about this and I am not sure if Becky was writing regarding the official interp from them or not. I always understood that NCAA used ASA with some minor modifications until I printed out their rules..........they do look the same as ASA, but go into great detail with many situations.

[Roger Greene]

Dang. Why does something like this come up every time I've loaned my books out!!

Fed used to have a case play exactly on point(except if I remember correctly the ball was glove & ball were under her chin). They ruled that the look back did not apply unless F1 held the ball securely in her hand or glove, and had both feet within or partially within the circle.

Is this one of the rules to be changed next year?
Did "Referee" specify the code they were discussing?

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Roger......part of FED 8-4-2-K......states......the "Ball in the pitcher's hand".....

As always......I would trust your memory on this one........under FED rules......this would NOT be a violation of the lookback rule.....

I noticed a couple of case plays in the FED book regarding the rule.....but none that address this play exactly.

I wonder what set of rules the Referee magazine article was addressing?

Joel

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Gulf Coast Blue


I do not know the NCAA interp about this and I am not sure if Becky was writing regarding the official interp from them or not. I always understood that NCAA used ASA with some minor modifications until I printed out their rules..........they do look the same as ASA, but go into great detail with many situations.
[/B]

Joel,

NCAA Rule 12 Sec. 18 a. The look-back rule is in effect when
the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base,
there are one or more runners, the pitcher has possession
and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle.

glen

[TERRY1]

Ok the article in Referre refers to the NEW NFHS ruling that the ball need only be in the pitcher's possesion for the the look-back rule to be in effect (8-7-1 in the new rule). The editorial revision intends to create a standard interpretation so there would be fewer arguments. That was in 8-4-2k Note in old rule book.

The previous rule stated that the ball was to be in either hand. It is possible for the the ball to be in her possesion, but not in either hand(as in senario above). However just having the ball/glove in the circle does not constitute possession. For example the ball/glove in circle laying on the ground.

Becky does not state what rules but I would guess Ncaa since most of her articles tend to refer to Ncaa.

[Roger Greene]

Aha! The New Rule. Just call me Scarlet. I'll worry about that tomorrow (ie after the first of the year).
BIG G! (probably just a few baseball games left before the end of the season, frost again this am)
Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Dakota]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
NCAA Rule 12 Sec. 18 a. The look-back rule is in effect when
the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base,
there are one or more runners, the pitcher has possession
and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle.

This is a clear difference from ASA - adding and control to just possession makes a big difference. Under ASA, once the lookback is in effect, the pitcher does not need to keep the ball in her hands, only not drop it, etc., but in NCAA she does. In NCAA the pitcher would need to call TIME first.

Control to me would imply that the pitcher has secure possession of the ball and would be prepared to make a play if necessary or desired. Mere possession does not necessarily require that - it only requires that the has the ball.

Terry mentioned putting the glove, with the ball inside, on the ground. Even in ASA, this would release the runners - placing the ball on the ground is close enough to "drop" for me, and she is clearly no longer holding it.

[SamNVa]

Under the topic of rules interpretations:

SITUATION 6: With the ball in F1's possession and in the 16-foot circle,
B1 rounds first base on a walk. F1, believing time to be out, wishes to
adjust her hair and puts the ball a) under her chin, or b) in her glove and
under her arm. RULING: B1 is not released at first base in a) or b)
because there was no obvious play being made on her. COMMENT: Once
F1 had the ball in her hand in the 16-foot circle, the runner is obligated
to move directly toward the next base or the base last touched without
any motion or recognition by the pitcher. (8-4-2k, NOTE)

[pyitejam]

Hey Guys. new to the board. trying to learn as much as i can. had the look back rule called on the 3rd out to end a game. BR was standing a few feet off 3rd base. No circle is painted on the field. Is it just assumed that there is a 8 foot circle around the mound no matter what?? I understand the rule and have just learned of it today but I agree with the call, though not to end a game that is hotly contested.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by pyitejam
Hey Guys. new to the board. trying to learn as much as i can. had the look back rule called on the 3rd out to end a game. BR was standing a few feet off 3rd base. No circle is painted on the field. Is it just assumed that there is a 8 foot circle around the mound no matter what?? I understand the rule and have just learned of it today but I agree with the call, though not to end a game that is hotly contested.

Wow! Talking about dredging up an old thread! 2 1/2 years old!!

WARNING - The ASA lookback rule has changed just a bit from when this discussion took place!

But, to answer your question, the 8-foot circle is always there (speaking fastpitch), but if it is unmarked, then whether the pitcher is inside the circle is a matter of umpire judgment.

[Dakota]

Oh, I forgot to say...

Welcome to the board!

[pyitejam]

Thanks Tom. That's exactly what I didn't want to hear. The umpire's discretion. Thanks once again and thanks for the big welcome. I learn something everyday.
Andy

[whiskers_ump]

You know the post is old when Joel is in on it.

Where is Joel?