Bases loaded Homer, Missed Base, Runs?

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Exploring a nuance in the rules and came up with a disagreement here. 4 situations. Both Fed and ASA rulings please.

A) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

B) 2 outs, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. R3 misses second base and is properly appealed after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

C) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals R3, and then BR after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

D) 1 out, bases loaded, batter hits one out of the park. BR misses first base and R3 misses second base. Defense properly appeals BR, and then R3 after all four runners enter the dugout. How many runs score?

OK I'll play.

I believe A) B) and C) are same rulings in both ASA and NFHS

A) No runs score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

B) No runs score as third out was made by runner forced to advance because batter became a BR.

C) No runes score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

D) is the tricky one.

ASA 5.5.B.1 specifically says the force on an appeal play is determined at the time of the appeal not the time of the infraction (missing the base). So while R3 was being forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B, by the time the defense made the appeal the BR had been put out removing the force. The appeal of R3 becomes a time play not a force play so the runs by R1 and R2 score.

NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!

[MD Longhorn]

Those answer are exactly what I was trying to convey to someone else.

Anyone else have any reason to disagree?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Anyone else have any reason to disagree?

I'll try to think of something.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

OK I'll play.

I believe A) B) and C) are same rulings in both ASA and NFHS

A) No runs score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

B) No runs score as third out was made by runner forced to advance because batter became a BR.

C) No runes score as third out was made by BR before touching 1B.

D) is the tricky one.

ASA 5.5.B.1 specifically says the force on an appeal play is determined at the time of the appeal not the time of the infraction (missing the base). So while R3 was being forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B, by the time the defense made the appeal the BR had been put out removing the force. The appeal of R3 becomes a time play not a force play so the runs by R1 and R2 score.

NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!

I would look to the definition of a force out. When the B-R is retired on the force out, the force is removed on R3. I think in this situation, the timing of the appeals becomes critical. I do agree with that last part about leaving the ballpark. I can see both coaches out on the field arguing this one. I don't see anything in 9-1-1 exceptions that would apply to this situation. The key rule here to me is the definition of a force out. Since the B-R's out, even on appeal, is on a preceding runner, the out of R3 is no longer a force, thus the third out is simply an appeal out for missing the base.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I would look to the definition of a force out. When the B-R is retired on the force out, the force is removed on R3. I think in this situation, the timing of the appeals becomes critical. I do agree with that last part about leaving the ballpark. I can see both coaches out on the field arguing this one. I don't see anything in 9-1-1 exceptions that would apply to this situation. The key rule here to me is the definition of a force out. Since the B-R's out, even on appeal, is on a preceding runner, the out of R3 is no longer a force, thus the third out is simply an appeal out for missing the base.

(see my addition to Umpire Ernie's comment with the exact wording from the NFHS Case Book (2011).

9.1.1 SITUATION N: R1 is on second base, R2 on first base with one out. B4 hits safely to the outfield. R1 scores, R2 misses second base and is standing on third base when B4 is thrown out at second base. A dead-ball appeal is properly made on R2 for missing second base. The umpire rules R2 out for the third out.
Does R1's run count?
RULING: No. Since R2 was forced to advance to second
base, the appealed out at second base was a force out. No runs can score if the third out of an inning is the result of a force out. (8-6-7; 9-1-1 Exception b; 2-1)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

(see my addition to Umpire Ernie's comment with the exact wording from the NFHS Case Book (2011).

There is a difference between the case play and this play, that I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not.

In this case, the following runner is put out for missing first base. While not technically a force out, this removes the force play on F3 per the defintition of a force play.

Think of it this way. What if we had this situation instead. Bases loaded, B4 hits a slow roller to F3. F3 fields, touches 1st base (retiring the B-R), then throws to second trying to get R3. The throw sails into the outfield, and R1, R2, and R3 all score. The defense then appeals that R3 missed second base. Because the following runner had been put out, there is no force. R3 is out for missing the base.

This seems to be a clarity of the rules issue. I personally think the ASA rule on this is clearer and is correct, and once again Fed has rules (as they do with many sports), that are not as clear as they could be.

As I have said, I can see both sides on this. I think the case play, even though it isn't the exact same ruling, makes sense. I also think it is inconsistent with the definition of the force play in 2-24.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

(Snip)
NHFS 9.1.1 does not include the verbiage about when the force is determined (time of infraction or time of appeal) and the casebook plays support the interp that since R3 was forced to 2B at the time she missed 2B this appeal is considered a force play and as the third out no runs score. I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

And I have to leave for the ballpark!

Here is the text cut and pasted from the 2011 NFHS SB Case Book:

9.1.1 SITUATION N: R1 is on second base, R2 on first base with one out. B4 hits safely to the outfield. R1 scores, R2 misses second base and is standing on third base when B4 is thrown out at second base. A dead-ball appeal is properly made on R2 for missing second base. The umpire rules R2 out for the third out.
Does R1's run count?
RULING: No. Since R2 was forced to advance to second base, the appealed out at second base was a force out. No runs can score if the third out of an inning is the result of a force out. (8-6-7; 9-1-1 Exception b; 2-1)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Here is the text cut and pasted from the 2011 NFHS SB Case Book:

This is interesting. I can see this both ways. Certainly the rule about a force out is in play, but at the same time I do see this being a situation where the rule should be that both are considered force outs, thus no runs score.

It's too bad the rules for Fed don't cover this very clearly, as I can see something like this being a situation that could occur. Lord knows, I've already had a bunch of missed base appeals this season.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Here is the text cut and pasted from the 2011 NFHS SB Case Book:

Thanks, Hugo.. by the way for those of you following along in the book at home casebook 9.1.1.N from 2011 is now 9.1.1.O in the 2013 book.

I agree with the philosophy that if a trailing runner is put out prior to the appeal then the appeal should be a time play not a force out. ASA obviously agrees too because they have specifically stated in the rules that determining force or not is based on the situation at the time of the appeal not the time of the baserunning infraction.

The NFHS rules do not have this verbiage and the casebook plays clarify that NFHSs position is that you base the force on the situation at the time of missing the base. If she was being forced to the base when she missed it, NFHS says to consider it a force.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

I think we discussed this ASA/NFHS difference about a month ago but I can't find the thread now.

Does the Run Count?