Whose Call at Third?

[Manny A]

Sitch: R1 at first, two outs. Pop fly in the infield to F4. With two down, R1 just runs, rounding second assuming that the inning will end. Well, it didn't.

F4 muffs the ball, and it falls out of her glove in front of her. She picks up the ball, and sees R1 heading for third. She throws to F5 for the tag play.

Who makes that call? Is it the first play by an infielder (meaning the BU should take it)? Or was the muff on the popup the first "play", so the throw was a subsequent play (meaning the PU has it)?

Bear in mind that the BU was pinned behind F4 in the "B" position. Apparently he assumed that F4 would make the catch, and was pretty far from making the call at third.

[AtlUmpSteve]

R1 to 2nd is the first (potential) play in the infield. R1 to 3rd is a lead runner that PU must cover.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

R1 to 2nd is the first (potential) play in the infield. R1 to 3rd is a lead runner that PU must cover.

Really? Even if there was no chance for a play?

R1, in this case, had already rounded second and was on her way to third when F4 picked up the ball. There was no possible way for a play to take place at second unless R1 ended up in a rundown.

I've never heard of treating a "potential play" as an actual play to determine responsibility.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Really? Even if there was no chance for a play?

R1, in this case, had already rounded second and was on her way to third when F4 picked up the ball. There was no possible way for a play to take place at second unless R1 ended up in a rundown.

I've never heard of treating a "potential play" as an actual play to determine responsibility.

OK. R1 on 1st with two outs, and B4 hits a pop to left field that is dropped. Or hits a seeing eye single through the infield. Who has third?

Why do you see your play as anything different? Two umpires, two runners, one headed to third with no "initial" infield play remaining. Does that sound better than a "first" play?

[DeputyUICHousto]

This is the plate umpires call...period.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

OK. R1 on 1st with two outs, and B4 hits a pop to left field that is dropped. Or hits a seeing eye single through the infield. Who has third?

Why do you see your play as anything different? Two umpires, two runners, one headed to third with no "initial" infield play remaining. Does that sound better than a "first" play?

Your other two examples I understand why the PU would take third. And it makes sense that the PU would take the call in the OP play. I guess I'm just overthinking this "first play by an infielder" philosophy.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess I'm just overthinking this "first play by an infielder" philosophy.

I think that's it exactly. Consider what is "normally" referred to in that philosophy - a ground ball to an infielder with runners heading to their first succeeding base. If it's not that, you're not going to sit there on the field and do something different from your natural instinct solely because the pop up happened to be in the infield and dropped.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just for grins and giggles ......

Can anyone come up with a play, be it even third world, where the "first play in the infield" philosphy, not a batter-runner, would apply to a second base advanced to during the play?

Even if a short fly falls between F6 and F8 (happens all the time), would it matter which one picked up the ball to make a play at third? Even if R1 on 2nd and R2 on first (making this a force play), I would STILL expect PU to make the call at third, without regard to which player picked it up to throw.

I suspect that after wordsmithing and micromanaging the concept, it would be better described as an "initial and immediate play BY an infielder". Because in all these instances, the initial play was the attempt to field the pop-up.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Just for grins and giggles ......

Can anyone come up with a play, be it even third world, where the "first play in the infield" philosphy, not a batter-runner, would apply to a second base advanced to during the play?

Even if a short fly falls between F6 and F8 (happens all the time), would it matter which one picked up the ball to make a play at third? Even if R1 on 2nd and R2 on first (making this a force play), I would STILL expect PU to make the call at third, without regard to which player picked it up to throw.

I suspect that after wordsmithing and micromanaging the concept, it would be better described as an "initial and immediate play BY an infielder". Because in all these instances, the initial play was the attempt to field the pop-up.

Okay, how about this one:

R1 at first, less than two outs. Batter bunts the ball up the first base line. F3 comes in and lets the ball roll, hoping it goes foul. When it looks pretty obvious that the ball is going to stay fair, F3 picks it up and sees that R1 is trying for third. F3 throws to F6 covering third.

Still the PU's call at third?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, how about this one:

R1 at first, less than two outs. Batter bunts the ball up the first base line. F3 comes in and lets the ball roll, hoping it goes foul. When it looks pretty obvious that the ball is going to stay fair, F3 picks it up and sees that R1 is trying for third. F3 throws to F6 covering third.

Still the PU's call at third?

Looks like an ad lib deviate to me.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Your other two examples I understand why the PU would take third. And it makes sense that the PU would take the call in the OP play. I guess I'm just overthinking this "first play by an infielder" philosophy.

Isn't the first play or second play distinction about when the BU is on the C, to delineate betwen two umpires both near the play and the BU is closest for a play from the infield(er).
Also for the sake of saying the PU has subsequent plays and plays from the outfield which gives the PU time to get to the coverage.

To me, this is only about attempts to put out a runner at 3rd, not counting fielding a batted ball as first; but only the attempt at 3rd.

[EsqUmp]

I don't know specifically what ASA says about the coverage, but I bet by the book it is the base umpire's call.

With that said, the plate umpire should make the call. However, if the plate umpire is locked at home because of fair/foul responsibility, the base umpire better figure something out quickly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, how about this one:

R1 at first, less than two outs. Batter bunts the ball up the first base line. F3 comes in and lets the ball roll, hoping it goes foul. When it looks pretty obvious that the ball is going to stay fair, F3 picks it up and sees that R1 is trying for third. F3 throws to F6 covering third.

Still the PU's call at third?

Would that not be the first and initial play?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Would that not be the first and initial play?

It would. But it would not be immediate, which is what Steve suggests as one criterion to decide who makes the call.

I see no real difference between this play, and the play where a looper falls in short left and F6 retrieves and throws the ball to third to force R1. But maybe it's just me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

It would. But it would not be immediate, which is what Steve suggests as one criterion to decide who makes the call.

I guess that would depend on how you define immediate.

I see no real difference between this play, and the play where a looper falls in short left and F6 retrieves and throws the ball to third to force R1. But maybe it's just me.

I do. This play is in the infield, Steve's is not.

Think of the reason why the BU has the first play in the infield. Is it because they are the base umpire and the play is at a base? Of course, not. It is because that due to the PU duties, priorities and possible "immediate" access to and view of the play may be more limited than that of the BU.