Bases loaded walk...

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

... is R1 forced home or awarded home? I read this discussion here in the past, can't find it. Showed up on a quiz at my first meeting.

Bases loaded, 2 out. Ball 4, R1 trots home, R2 sprints to 3rd and rounds it, picked off at 3rd before R1 touches home plate. Run counts?

ASA, the run would not score. NCAA, the run scores. I'm not 100% positive, however I believe the NFHS ruling is the run scores.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

[...] I'm not 100% positive, however I believe the NFHS ruling is the run scores.

It does. Case play 9.1.1D: With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)

[MD Longhorn]

(If anyone cares, this also has different rulings amongst the various baseball rulesets as well)

[jmkupka]

Thanks for the reply... any citation in ASA rules I can refer to on this? I got this answer marked wrong, & I did say 3 outs, no run scores.

[CecilOne]

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

[MD Longhorn]

You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.

I don't want to start a new thread because this is very similar.

ASA Rules (Slow pitch, but shouldn't make a difference)
Tie game, home team at bat, bases loaded, 2 outs.
Batter is awarded a base on balls. Runners advance due to being forced to vacate current base. R1 crosses home plate, BR touches 1st, and R2 touches 3rd; R3 does not complete his base-running responsibilities, does not touch 2B and joins his team mates for the post-game congratulations. Umpires get together and leave the field.

Once R3 leaves live ball territory (assuming umpires were still on the field), it seems the defense could make an appeal that R3 didn't touch 2nd, which would be 3rd out and the score would still be tied and moves to the next inning. (Reasoning - R3 is "entitled" to advance (not awarded) and therefore, must complete base-running responsibilities.)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

The ASA ruling is self-consistent (as described in my last post). NCAA and FED rulings are not consistent with the rest of their rules.

So my question would be - why is everyone else different?

[jmkupka]

Exactly Mike, that's why my OP started with the force/award question. The test I took was PONY rules; I will check to see if PONY considers all the runners forced to advance. If so, then I can assume the same interp as ASA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.

Isn't "Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced" true in all codes?
.................................................. ..................

So R1 des not score because the third out occurred before R1 reached HP.
Still wonder if "philosophy or just incidental diff?"
.................................................. ..................

Also, for others, other codes also say a run cannot score after the 3rd out.
I guess I need to go to the books.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

It does. Case play 9.1.1D: With two outs and R1, R2 and R3 on base, B6 receives ball four. R3 touches second and is then tagged off base for the third out before R1 has reached home base. RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)

I don't know why this NFHS case play cites 9-1-1 Exception b to justify the call. That Exception simply addresses that a run does not count if the third out is a force out. There is no force out in this case play, so citing it is bogus.

Also, 9-1-1 Exception f covers when a runner crosses the plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out. That's what happened here. If NFHS wants the run to score in this situation, it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:

"f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out, unless that runner is forced home because the batter was awarded first base."

[HugoTafurst]

[QUOTE=Manny A;877630]
(snip)
it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:
(snip)

"exception to this exception" I like that. ;-)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I don't know why this NFHS case play cites 9-1-1 Exception b to justify the call. That Exception simply addresses that a run does not count if the third out is a force out. There is no force out in this case play, so citing it is bogus.

Also, 9-1-1 Exception f covers when a runner crosses the plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out. That's what happened here. If NFHS wants the run to score in this situation, it needs to have an Exception to this Exception so that it's clear, such as:

"f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out, unless that runner is forced home because the batter was awarded first base."

The OP is about a succeeding runner.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The OP is about a succeeding runner.

True. But I think the use of the word "preceding" in the rule is meant to address a situation just like the OP. Otherwise, how in the world does a runner cross home plate after an actual preceding runner is declared out?

Hmmmm... Am I thinking that 9-1-1f should have said "succeeding" instead of "preceeding" runner?