Bases loaded walk...

[CecilOne]

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

[MD Longhorn]

You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You're looking for a rule cite to prove a negative. 8-1-C says that when a batter receives four balls, she is awarded first base. 8-5-A says that runners may advance without liability to be put out when forced to vacate their base due to the batter receiving a base on balls.

You're not going to find a rule that says, runners are NOT awarded a base when forced to vacate their bases due to a batter receiving a base on balls.

Just that they are allowed to advance 1 base. Therefore, if someone gets out before a teammate crosses the plate, just like any other time in the game, the run does not score.

I don't want to start a new thread because this is very similar.

ASA Rules (Slow pitch, but shouldn't make a difference)
Tie game, home team at bat, bases loaded, 2 outs.
Batter is awarded a base on balls. Runners advance due to being forced to vacate current base. R1 crosses home plate, BR touches 1st, and R2 touches 3rd; R3 does not complete his base-running responsibilities, does not touch 2B and joins his team mates for the post-game congratulations. Umpires get together and leave the field.

Once R3 leaves live ball territory (assuming umpires were still on the field), it seems the defense could make an appeal that R3 didn't touch 2nd, which would be 3rd out and the score would still be tied and moves to the next inning. (Reasoning - R3 is "entitled" to advance (not awarded) and therefore, must complete base-running responsibilities.)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

I don't want to start a new thread because this is very similar.

ASA Rules (Slow pitch, but shouldn't make a difference)
Tie game, home team at bat, bases loaded, 2 outs.
Batter is awarded a base on balls. Runners advance due to being forced to vacate current base. R1 crosses home plate, BR touches 1st, and R2 touches 3rd; R3 does not complete his base-running responsibilities, does not touch 2B and joins his team mates for the post-game congratulations. Umpires get together and leave the field.

Once R3 leaves live ball territory (assuming umpires were still on the field), it seems the defense could make an appeal that R3 didn't touch 2nd, which would be 3rd out and the score would still be tied and moves to the next inning. (Reasoning - R3 is "entitled" to advance (not awarded) and therefore, must complete base-running responsibilities.)

Assuming last or extra inning, doesn't the game end when the winning run scores because in ASA this becomes an appeal which would be ruled after the score?

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Assuming last or extra inning, doesn't the game end when the winning run scores because in ASA this becomes an appeal which would be ruled after the score?

Correct assumption concerning the inning - either bottom of last inning, or bottom of extra inning.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Assuming last or extra inning, doesn't the game end when the winning run scores because in ASA this becomes an appeal which would be ruled after the score?

Why is this an appeal?

Is it a missed base, violating 8.7-G (which would be an appeal) or, by referencing leaving live ball territory, haven't you actually judged this a violation of 8.7-U, abandoning?

Man up, guys (and gals); you need to make this call if it happens, not hope the visiting team doesn't appeal.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Why is this an appeal?

Is it a missed base, violating 8.7-G (which would be an appeal) or, by referencing leaving live ball territory, haven't you actually judged this a violation of 8.7-U, abandoning?

Man up, guys (and gals); you need to make this call if it happens, not hope the visiting team doesn't appeal.

Didn't R1 score before R3 entered dead ball territory?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Didn't R1 score before R3 entered live ball territory?

(Didn't R3 START in live ball territory! )

A run cannot score when... blah blah blah ... FORCED ... blah blah blah.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Why is this an appeal?

Is it a missed base, violating 8.7-G (which would be an appeal) or, by referencing leaving live ball territory, haven't you actually judged this a violation of 8.7-U, abandoning?

Man up, guys (and gals); you need to make this call if it happens, not hope the visiting team doesn't appeal.

If it's a "walk off" base-on-balls the players will probably not leave the field for a bit. There is the celebrating and usually the handshake ritual. I am going to watch the runners touch (or not touch in this case) the next base. If there is no appeal forthcoming we (the umpires) are going to take our leave. Once we leave it's too late. R3 is still on the field and still has not touched the next base which she was forced to. Too bad. Game over.

I suppose if I call "ball" (four) and R3 turns and runs directly into dugout to get glove for next inning thinking it was strike three you could rule abandonment.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

The ASA ruling is self-consistent (as described in my last post). NCAA and FED rulings are not consistent with the rest of their rules.

So my question would be - why is everyone else different?

[jmkupka]

Exactly Mike, that's why my OP started with the force/award question. The test I took was PONY rules; I will check to see if PONY considers all the runners forced to advance. If so, then I can assume the same interp as ASA.

[Blackie]

Here is the ruling from the ISF.

R1’s run does not count. See ISF Rule 7 a “one run shall be scored each time a runner legally touches first, second, third bases and home plate before the third out of the inning.” Since R2 was picked off at 3rd base before R1 touched home plate, the run does not score.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is ASA different, philosophy or just incidental diff?

Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because ASA rules award a base to the batter, not runners. Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced. Rules specifically note that the runner is in jeopardy should s/he attempt to advance beyond that base.

ASA rules also specifically note that a run cannot score after the 3rd out of the half inning has been executed.

Isn't "Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced" true in all codes?
.................................................. ..................

So R1 des not score because the third out occurred before R1 reached HP.
Still wonder if "philosophy or just incidental diff?"
.................................................. ..................

Also, for others, other codes also say a run cannot score after the 3rd out.
I guess I need to go to the books.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Isn't "Only runners forced may advance without liability to be put out, but ONLY to the base forced" true in all codes?
.................................................. ..................

So R1 des not score because the third out occurred before R1 reached HP.
Still wonder if "philosophy or just incidental diff?"
.................................................. ..................

Also, for others, other codes also say a run cannot score after the 3rd out.
I guess I need to go to the books.

You can check all the books. You won't find any real justification for the run scoring when the third out is made before the run scores other than a case book ruling by DA in NCAA and MS in NFHS. No where is there logic for runners awarded bases on a walk to the batter, they are simply advanced by force; a force that disappears when a trailing runner is put out!

In fact, if they were all awarded bases, wouldn't they advance even when NOT forced? And, wouldn't the run NOT score if a runner failed to advance and that (force) was appealed for the third out? How is that consistent, or logical?