Trivia 3

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

NFHS 2.9.5 Sit C: F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the ground and her hand is on top of the ball. F3 turns her hand over so the ball is facing upward (a) before; or (b) after the batter-runner touches first base. RULING: In both (a) and (b) the batter-runner is out. F3 demonstrated control of the thrown ball by turning it upward. COMMENT: Umpires must determine if the fielder had control of the ball before the runner touched the base. This is a similar situation to the umpire asking to "see the ball" after a tag has been made. (2-9-5f).

[MD Longhorn]

Just curious ... I know a couple of you are quite a ways up the flagpole, so to speak, but 2 of you that I KNOW are high up seem to disagree on this. Wondering if one of you or both could contact someone from whom an opinion on this would be definitive. Now that we've posted this and the minds I trust to be right are not in agreement, I KNOW this will happen to me next year.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What makes it different... in both cases, the ball is under the control of the fielder. If they are able to pick it up, then they controlled it in that instant.

Don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base I wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if Fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

[ASA Ump MN]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Just curious ... I know a couple of you are quite a ways up the flagpole, so to speak, but 2 of you that I KNOW are high up seem to disagree on this. Wondering if one of you or both could contact someone from whom an opinion on this would be definitive. Now that we've posted this and the minds I trust to be right are not in agreement, I KNOW this will happen to me next year.

Not that I'm a higher up or ever will be. I do plan running this by KR, CC or LM at the ASA advanced clinic if I'm able to attend it again next year.



How would you guys rule on a ball that is trapped/controlled "you pick" with the glove. Meaning a ball that is half sticking out of the outer webbing of the glove and the ball is on the ground. For instance, a scoop attempt at 1st. The runner passes 1B while the ball is on the ground and in the glove. Do you have an out if he lifts it cleanly after the runner gains the base?

Another interesting The Official Forum topic!!!

Thanks Much~

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

Not that I'm a higher up or ever will be. I do plan running this by KR, CC or LM at the ASA advanced clinic if I'm able to attend it again next year.



How would you guys rule on a ball that is trapped/controlled "you pick" with the glove. Meaning a ball that is half sticking out of the outer webbing of the glove and the ball is on the ground. For instance, a scoop attempt at 1st. The runner passes 1B while the ball is on the ground and in the glove. Do you have an out if he lifts it cleanly after the runner gains the base?

Another interesting The Official Forum topic!!!

Thanks Much~

I would call the runner safe under the assumption that the fielder was using the ground to assist in controlling the ball. S/he might continue and make the pick cleanly, but I don't think I'd call the out if the ball was still in contact with the ground.

[IRISHMAFIA]

BTW, IMO, "show me the ball" has nothing to do with this, nor this have anything to do with "show me the ball".

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BTW, IMO, "show me the ball" has nothing to do with this, nor this have anything to do with "show me the ball".

And vice versa.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base I wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if Fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

There is a difference between a ball that is trapped under a glove, and one where the fielder is gripping it with the bare hand as we're discussing, IMO. With the glove, you can't see that the ball is being securely held underneath. With th bare hand, you can.

I honestly can't understand why some people feel that a gripped ball that is still touching the ground is not under the fielder's control. If I ever see a ball fall from a fielder's hand when he/she grips it and then lifts the hand, then I'll change my opinion on this. But I feel pretty confident that that won't happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I honestly can't understand why some people feel that a gripped ball that is still touching the ground is not under the fielder's control. If I ever see a ball fall from a fielder's hand when he/she grips it and then lifts the hand, then I'll change my opinion on this. But I feel pretty confident that that won't happen.

Really? You ever see a defender lose the grip on the ball when applying a tag? I have, so obviously that "grip" isn't all it is made out to be.

It is real simple. The fielder needs to demonstrate control of the ball. Okay, demonstrate it. All a smart player would do is just roll over the hand holding the ball on the base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Really? You ever see a defender lose the grip on the ball when applying a tag? I have, so obviously that "grip" isn't all it is made out to be.

All due respect, c'mon. Apples and cantaloupes. Of course I've seen that. But that's because a force is applied to the fielder's hand that causes him/her to lose that grip.

What force other than gravity is at work here? What could possibly cause the fielder to lift his/her hand gripped around the ball, and the ball stays on the plate?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

All due respect, c'mon. Apples and cantaloupes. Of course I've seen that. But that's because a force is applied to the fielder's hand that causes him/her to lose that grip.

Not always. I've seen players lose the ball simply because they extend their arm reaching to the runner and the ball slipped out of their hand yet up to that point there seemed to be a good grip.

What force other than gravity is at work here? What could possibly cause the fielder to lift his/her hand gripped around the ball, and the ball stays on the plate?

Who knows, that is why the fielder is supposed to demonstrate control

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Really? You ever see a defender lose the grip on the ball when applying a tag? I have, so obviously that "grip" isn't all it is made out to be.

It is real simple. The fielder needs to demonstrate control of the ball. Okay, demonstrate it. All a smart player would do is just roll over the hand holding the ball on the base.

And my point (and others') is that picking it up without any sort of bobbling shows just that control. Picking up a ball off the ground and then rolling your hand over while still touching the ground with your hand, all while preparing to throw - that's a bit much.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

And my point (and others') is that picking it up without any sort of bobbling shows just that control. Picking up a ball off the ground and then rolling your hand over while still touching the ground with your hand, all while preparing to throw - that's a bit much.

To start, I didn't say pick up the ball and then roll the hand. I just said roll over the hand. IOW, put the hand or glove under the ball as is noted in the ISF manual.

The key is to show contol by not having the ball rest on or be trapped against anything other than the fielder's hand and/or glove.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base i wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

+1