Trivia 3

[MD Longhorn]

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

2 outs so far.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

2 outs so far.

I think you mean 3.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you mean 3.

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball. In one of the baseball games, F2 picked up the ball, I declared R3 out, and the catcher waited to for R3 to come to the plate to tag him not realizing the runner was already out.

In the other baseball game, as soon as F2 picked up the ball, the DC started hollering to F2 to throw the ball to 1B for the DP. After play relaxed, the OC wanted to know why F3 was out because F2 didn't step on the plate.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball.

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

What I did have that requires similar thinking was this play: Ground ball to F6, and her throw to first is dropped by F3. The ball land at F3's feet, and she puts her bare hand on top of the ball with her fingers around it, but she doesn't pick it up. That's the position she's in when the BR reaches and touches first base.

I ruled the BR out because I felt F3 had control of the ball when she wrapped her hand around it. The fact that the ball was on the ground had no bearing on the play, since the ground wasn't helping her maintain that control.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

[ASA Ump MN]

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

[ASA Ump MN]

Manny is a lot better umpire than me and I've learned a lot from him. But I disagree a ball on the ground whether trapped by bare hand or in the outer webbing of a glove is control or an out.
I don't have control until it's picked up off the ground on the ops question. No force at home 2 outs!

But I've been wrong before...

[Umpteenth]

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

Nope.....Lifting the ball is what demonstrates control.

If the ball is on the ground and the fielder puts his hand on top of it, I can't tell if he has control or not. When he lifts the ball, that demonstrates control. As I said before, control started when he gripped the ball, but was not demonstrated to me until the ball was lifted. If the fielder never lifts the ball, I can't tell if he has control or not, so the benefit of that doubt goes to the offense.

[RKBUmp]

Hmmm, Id say you just had a double play. Ball was laying on plate, so when catcher picked up the ball, they just made contact with the plate for the force from 3rd, then threw to 1st to retire the batter/runner.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Hmmm, Id say you just had a double play. Ball was laying on plate, so when catcher picked up the ball, they just made contact with the plate for the force from 3rd, then threw to 1st to retire the batter/runner.

That's how I see it....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

That's how I see it....

I don't. Is a ball trapped against the ground, a body, a wall, anything considered a ball under control? Is a defender not required to demonstrate control of the ball prior to successfully executing an out?

Unless the catcher touched the plate with some other part of her body or uniform prior to the release of the throw to 1B, or picked the ball up and tapped the plate with it, I have the run scoring (assuming she did) and the BR retired at 1B.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't. Is a ball trapped against the ground, a body, a wall, anything considered a ball under control? Is a defender not required to demonstrate control of the ball prior to successfully executing an out?

Didn't she display control when she was able to successfully lift the ball off the plate without dropping it or bobbling it?

[Andy]

Now we are going to get into physics......

Gripping and picking up the ball laying on the plate demonstrated control of the ball. In order to pick up the ball, the player had to have a firm grip on it and control of it. If the ball was picked up cleanly, and I don't see anything to indicate it wasn't, the grip and control was established while the ball was on the plate.

The control of the ball and it's contact with the plate may have only lasted for a few milliseconds, but it was there.