Trivia 3

[Umpteenth]

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

How is that possible? If picking up the ball establishes control, then there is a (albeit very small) period of time where the ball is controlled and still touching the plate.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

Nope.....Lifting the ball is what demonstrates control.

If the ball is on the ground and the fielder puts his hand on top of it, I can't tell if he has control or not. When he lifts the ball, that demonstrates control. As I said before, control started when he gripped the ball, but was not demonstrated to me until the ball was lifted. If the fielder never lifts the ball, I can't tell if he has control or not, so the benefit of that doubt goes to the offense.

[ASA Ump MN]

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine).

Still disagree with you, but this got me thinking... F3 takes a throw from F6 ahead of the runner and traps it against the dirt with her foot on the bag. In a) the batter-runner crosses before the ball is picked up. In b) the BR crosses after the ball is picked up. In Fed I have an out in b only. In ASA in a, I'm asking the fielder to demonstrate control of the ball. If she can do that cleanly, I have an out.

Now, wouldn't the same thing apply at the plate. Bases loaded, ball lands on the plate and the catcher can't find it. As the runner is about to get home the catcher grabs the ball and simply holds it against the plate. After the runner slides home she pulls it cleanly off the plate. I've got an out in ASA and no out in Fed, yes?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

Still disagree with you, but this got me thinking... F3 takes a throw from F6 ahead of the runner and traps it against the dirt with her foot on the bag. In a) the batter-runner crosses before the ball is picked up. In b) the BR crosses after the ball is picked up. In Fed I have an out in b only. In ASA in a, I'm asking the fielder to demonstrate control of the ball. If she can do that cleanly, I have an out.

Now, wouldn't the same thing apply at the plate. Bases loaded, ball lands on the plate and the catcher can't find it. As the runner is about to get home the catcher grabs the ball and simply holds it against the plate. After the runner slides home she pulls it cleanly off the plate. I've got an out in ASA and no out in Fed, yes?

I was with you right until "and no out in fed"... why the difference?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I was with you right until "and no out in fed"... why the difference?

Well, I definitely put a question mark at the end of it. But if a tag of the plate with the foot doesn't count unless you show control first then why should a tag of the plate with the ball. You have to show that you had control during the tag by cleaning picking up the ball in time.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

This is my 17th year. The first 11 years was spent solely doing SB and BB in youth leagues, 15 and under. You will see more crapola in one year of youth ball than in 3 years of HS and above.

That is the truth.

Rita

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

There is your answer underlined. Player already had "ball in hand" and touched base. Very different from ball laying on base and not in hand.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

If the ball is on the ground and the fielder puts his hand on top of it, I can't tell if he has control or not. When he lifts the ball, that demonstrates control. As I said before, control started when he gripped the ball, but was not demonstrated to me until the ball was lifted. If the fielder never lifts the ball, I can't tell if he has control or not, so the benefit of that doubt goes to the offense.

So, using your logic of needing additional evidence to determine control, one could argue that "Show me the ball!" is a totally irrelevant demand. After all, the fielder may have had the ball when she tagged the runner, but his/her possession was not demonstrated until he/she showed it to you afterward.

Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. I think it's perfectly acceptable to judge that when we see a fielder clearly grip the ball with his/her fingers around it, we can conclude that control was established at that point, regardless of what else the ball may be touching at that time. Unless the fielder has extremely tiny fingers, he/she is going to pick up that ball without any need for additional gripping or adjusting. It's not like trying to palm a basketball.

If showing you the ball after a tag is enough to convince you that the fielder had the ball when he/she made the tag, then lifting the ball off the ground should equally be enough to convince you that the fielder had the ball when he/she gripped it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

There is your answer underlined. Player already had "ball in hand" and touched base. Very different from ball laying on base and not in hand.

What makes it different... in both cases, the ball is under the control of the fielder. If they are able to pick it up, then they controlled it in that instant.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

For some odd reason, with equal evidence , I have a feeling it is just the opposite where NFHS allows the ball to covered and considered in possession if the fielder can then demonstrate control by lifting it off the ground.