Trivia 3

[MD Longhorn]

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

2 outs so far.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

2 outs so far.

I think you mean 3.

[RKBUmp]

Hmmm, Id say you just had a double play. Ball was laying on plate, so when catcher picked up the ball, they just made contact with the plate for the force from 3rd, then threw to 1st to retire the batter/runner.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Hmmm, Id say you just had a double play. Ball was laying on plate, so when catcher picked up the ball, they just made contact with the plate for the force from 3rd, then threw to 1st to retire the batter/runner.

That's how I see it....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

That's how I see it....

I don't. Is a ball trapped against the ground, a body, a wall, anything considered a ball under control? Is a defender not required to demonstrate control of the ball prior to successfully executing an out?

Unless the catcher touched the plate with some other part of her body or uniform prior to the release of the throw to 1B, or picked the ball up and tapped the plate with it, I have the run scoring (assuming she did) and the BR retired at 1B.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't. Is a ball trapped against the ground, a body, a wall, anything considered a ball under control? Is a defender not required to demonstrate control of the ball prior to successfully executing an out?

Didn't she display control when she was able to successfully lift the ball off the plate without dropping it or bobbling it?

[Andy]

Now we are going to get into physics......

Gripping and picking up the ball laying on the plate demonstrated control of the ball. In order to pick up the ball, the player had to have a firm grip on it and control of it. If the ball was picked up cleanly, and I don't see anything to indicate it wasn't, the grip and control was established while the ball was on the plate.

The control of the ball and it's contact with the plate may have only lasted for a few milliseconds, but it was there.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter tips the ball into the dirt about a foot behind home plate, and its spin causes it to roll onto the top of home plate. The batter takes off towards first. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it to first for the out.

Ruling?

You're making the play too easy. Let's change it up a bit. Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter misses the ball but it bounces out of the catchers glove to land on the plate. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it into right field.

Ruling? And how many people do you end up ejecting?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

You're making the play too easy. Let's change it up a bit. Bases loaded, 2 outs. The batter misses the ball but it bounces out of the catchers glove to land on the plate. The catcher reaches down and picks up the ball off the top of plate and throws it into right field.

Ruling? And how many people do you end up ejecting?

You made no change whatsoever. The crux of this question is...

Does picking the ball up while it is on the plate constitute control of the ball and touching the plate at the same time.

I believe it does (a few others have agreed). Mike does not - but I submit this. You are right that holding the ball against the ground is a trap, not a catch... but it is still CONTROL, which is what matters here. If events were reversed, the player has the ball and touches the plate with it - you have the same thing - a player with the ball in her hand touching the plate... and I believe you'd have an out there. So why not in the OP?

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you mean 3.

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball. In one of the baseball games, F2 picked up the ball, I declared R3 out, and the catcher waited to for R3 to come to the plate to tag him not realizing the runner was already out.

In the other baseball game, as soon as F2 picked up the ball, the DC started hollering to F2 to throw the ball to 1B for the DP. After play relaxed, the OC wanted to know why F3 was out because F2 didn't step on the plate.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You made no change whatsoever. The crux of this question is...

Does picking the ball up while it is on the plate constitute control of the ball and touching the plate at the same time.

I believe it does (a few others have agreed). Mike does not - but I submit this. You are right that holding the ball against the ground is a trap, not a catch... but it is still CONTROL, which is what matters here. If events were reversed, the player has the ball and touches the plate with it - you have the same thing - a player with the ball in her hand touching the plate... and I believe you'd have an out there. So why not in the OP?

Yeah I agree with you on the crux of the question. In my judgment a ball picked up off a base has tagged that base while in control of the fielder.
I just think my change makes the question more fun.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

CecilOne, you are correct, I didn't read far enough: "throws to first for the out." My apoligies.

I have had this play once in softball and twice in baseball.

Wow, THREE times! I've never seen it happen. Heck, I can't even recall ever seeing a batted ball stay on the plate.

What I did have that requires similar thinking was this play: Ground ball to F6, and her throw to first is dropped by F3. The ball land at F3's feet, and she puts her bare hand on top of the ball with her fingers around it, but she doesn't pick it up. That's the position she's in when the BR reaches and touches first base.

I ruled the BR out because I felt F3 had control of the ball when she wrapped her hand around it. The fact that the ball was on the ground had no bearing on the play, since the ground wasn't helping her maintain that control.

[ASA Ump MN]

I'm with Mike so far! I don't believe he has established control.....

So would you guys give a fielder a force-out if he reached down, grabbed the ball ON the ground, never lifting it, while his foot was touching the bag.

[ASA Ump MN]

Manny is a lot better umpire than me and I've learned a lot from him. But I disagree a ball on the ground whether trapped by bare hand or in the outer webbing of a glove is control or an out.
I don't have control until it's picked up off the ground on the ops question. No force at home 2 outs!

But I've been wrong before...