ASA Directive question

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It is not a directive, it is a rule. It has been covered in the UIC clinic and I believe at some point it was included on a Rules Clarification from KR.

When this occurs and it is apparent no one is going to move, the umpire is to suspend play and return the runner to 1st base.

Thanks, Mike - I'm looking for that rules clarification. I and another umpire cannot locate it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Thanks, Mike - I'm looking for that rules clarification. I and another umpire cannot locate it.

I took a quick look at a few of them, I couldn't find it. Then again, I know I've had this discussion in OKC and I thought on one of these boards in the past couple years.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I took a quick look at a few of them, I couldn't find it. Then again, I know I've had this discussion in OKC and I thought on one of these boards in the past couple years.

I believe there was a case book play that covered this. (but that may have been before the case book was trimmed down)

[tcannizzo]

This one is near and dear to my heart.
Back in 1999, when I was coaching, I conjured up this play named Chaos.

I wrote to M. Butler at the time for an interpretation and ruling.

I actually designed it to be run with bases loaded as a way of getting R1 an opportunity to score. No advantage if just 1st and 2nd.

As previously posted, you cannot invoke LBR because with 2 runners on the same base, it is the equivalent that they are "still running", and the only way to resolve it is to tag the runner that doesn't belong there.

The way Chaos was designed to be run, was that when F1 made a throw towards 2B, R2 would run towards 3B and R3 would run back towards 1B, drawing a run-down, and of course, R1 scores easily in the confusion.

And as previously noted, if the defense kept a "cool head" and made no play, after several seconds umpire kills the play and returns R3 to 1B.

Footnote: I printed the email from MB and would review with UICs before the first game of the tournament to get UIC agreement of the final ruling after potential protests, which I felt would be inevitable. Had a couple tell me that they would not rule in my favor, so I would not run the play in those tournaments.

Only ran the play once and it failed miserably, and never ran it again.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Only ran the play once and it failed miserably, and never ran it again.

How did it fail? What happened?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

How did it fail? What happened?

Knowing Tony at that time, he probably ran the play just to spite one of the umpires who told him he would not rule in his favor.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Knowing Tony at that time, he probably ran the play just to spite one of the umpires who told him he would not rule in his favor.

I was going to save that honor for you Mike, as you would have probably told me that you would rule against it, just because it was me, not because it was a violation.

But this was 12-u. We practiced it a lot, but when we ran the play the first time, one of the runners (R2 or R3) was put out and R1 ended up not scoring, and quite possibly got doubled up.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Thanks, Mike - I'm looking for that rules clarification. I and another umpire cannot locate it.

I know it is in the case book i have from library2002 but it is not handy.

[Tex]

Understand the discussion, but what rule is being used for the umpire to suspend play because both teams are at a stand still.

We have had other discussions where the umpire can not suspend play at a stand still situation, and must wait until someone does something, because the play is still ongoing.

What makes this play different?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tex

Understand the discussion, but what rule is being used for the umpire to suspend play because both teams are at a stand still.

We have had other discussions where the umpire can not suspend play at a stand still situation, and must wait until someone does something, because the play is still ongoing.

What makes this play different?

ASA does. (PS - I don't know about CAN NOT suspend play... I can't think of a situation where we CAN NOT... although I can think of several where a coach wants us to and I WOULD not.)

[tcannizzo]

The Mexican Standoff Rule, of course.

Point is that the official interpretation was handed down and therefore enforceable.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tex

Understand the discussion, but what rule is being used for the umpire to suspend play because both teams are at a stand still.

10.4.A

We have had other discussions where the umpire can not suspend play at a stand still situation, and must wait until someone does something, because the play is still ongoing.

What makes this play different?

Common sense. This is not a fair batted ball pending resolution; This is not the offense still attempting to advance; This is not the defense attempting a play.

[Softball910]

Young Ump, you are doing a good job keep reading the rule and case books.

To the all else if you are stuck on ASA please see 2012 Umpire manual, Rule 8, Section 3, read 3B then 3E, page 87.

Fellow umpires, we only enable less than knowledgeable coaches when WE allow them to attempt to circumvent the already written rules with some concoction they dream up in the shower(Chaos?, only in the coaches mind).

I am not sure where the rationalization of calling time and protecting the runner back to first base has come from beyond the fact that if a rule was not being violated, that calling time, by rule once again, allows no one to advance or be put out or play to happen in any sense beyond what the umpire is dictating. Did some Ump feel they were placing the runner in jeopardy?, So help her back to first - NOT!

I myself in very good conscience, would call time, call the runner from first out because they are not entitled to second base, and if CHAOS coach had a question about it I would explain 3B and 3E to them and move on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Softball910

Young Ump, you are doing a good job keep reading the rule and case books.

To the all else if you are stuck on ASA please see 2012 Umpire manual, Rule 8, Section 3, read 3B then 3E, page 87.

What's your point? The rule you cited explicitly states that the defense must tag the runner to put them out, not a declaration by the umpire.

Fellow umpires, we only enable less than knowledgeable coaches when WE allow them to attempt to circumvent the already written rules with some concoction they dream up in the shower(Chaos?, only in the coaches mind).

I am not sure where the rationalization of calling time and protecting the runner back to first base has come from beyond the fact that if a rule was not being violated, that calling time, by rule once again, allows no one to advance or be put out or play to happen in any sense beyond what the umpire is dictating. Did some Ump feel they were placing the runner in jeopardy?, So help her back to first - NOT!

No, the defense had the opportunity to make a play on that runner and refused to do so. It takes two teams to play the game. What do you do in SP when a runner stands off a base and the defender stands there with the ball trying to stare them down? Do you just wait until one side decides to restart playing the game, or do you give them a few seconds to see if there is going to be a play, then kill the ball, put the runner back on the base and move on with the game?

I myself in very good conscience, would call time, call the runner from first out because they are not entitled to second base, and if CHAOS coach had a question about it I would explain 3B and 3E to them and move on.

You may have a clear conscience, but you will also restart the game from that point after losing the protest.

You have summarily decided the rules do not need to be followed, the interpretation by the NUS is wrong, and you are correct. Well, have fun with that.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Softball910

I myself in very good conscience, would call time, call the runner from first out because they are not entitled to second base, and if CHAOS coach had a question about it I would explain 3B and 3E to them and move on.

Then you would be calling this out in direct opposition to ASA's instruction on this play.