The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
I had a phone call from a coach at the 18 Gold Qualifier this past weekend in Florida (I was in Las Vegas, instead), asking about a TEAM FLA pitcher doing a similar thing that the umpire insisted was legal. As did the UIC (also state UIC).

The coach said (I wasn't there, just repeating his statements) that in an advanced umpire clinic, he was told 6.3.B (removes one hand from the ball and returns the ball to both hands) only applied if the ball was actually and completely placed inside the glove a second time, that despite the hands obviously touching together several times on most pitches, the other "touches" didn't count (in the violation commonly named "double-touch").

I may have missed that clinic. Am I missing something here?
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 03:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
No, I don't, but from the information on their web site, I see they are Chinese. The software may be great, but I would not give my cc number to a Chinese software company.
Just a suggestion. I keep one credit card just for those transactions where I have doubts; with a very low limit and consistent monitoring on line. I have declined payments before, had the account numbers changed when the account appeared compromised; and closed the account to another bank the one time I felt the customer support wasn't supportive enough.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
I had a phone call from a coach at the 18 Gold Qualifier this past weekend in Florida (I was in Las Vegas, instead), asking about a TEAM FLA pitcher doing a similar thing that the umpire insisted was legal. As did the UIC (also state UIC).

The coach said (I wasn't there, just repeating his statements) that in an advanced umpire clinic, he was told 6.3.B (removes one hand from the ball and returns the ball to both hands) only applied if the ball was actually and completely placed inside the glove a second time, that despite the hands obviously touching together several times on most pitches, the other "touches" didn't count (in the violation commonly named "double-touch").

I may have missed that clinic. Am I missing something here?
Completely new one on me. 6-1-E says "shall bring the hands together". Any clinic I have ever been to has indicated a pitcher only has to touch the hands together to fulfill this requirement. Not sure how you get from the first touch to the second now requiring the ball to actually be placed inside the glove.

Not sure about the situation you have posted, but, based on the original video posted, even if the 2nd touch required the ball to be completely inside the glove, would we not now have a violation of 6-3-C? Once she has separated the hands and swung the arm back, has she not started her forward motion once the arm starts to come forward? Touching again, then dropping the arm to the rear a 2nd time would seem to me to be a stoppage and reversal of forward motion.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 04:12pm
Tex Tex is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Texarkana, Texas
Posts: 156
Not only did I miss that clinic, but I also received rule books that did not have that new change stated.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 07:27pm
hog hog is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 9
A great video editor for .mp4 is Apple's Quick Time.

6-3-B --- Violation
6-3-C --- Violation
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 13, 2012, 09:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
I had a phone call from a coach at the 18 Gold Qualifier this past weekend in Florida (I was in Las Vegas, instead), asking about a TEAM FLA pitcher doing a similar thing that the umpire insisted was legal. As did the UIC (also state UIC).

The coach said (I wasn't there, just repeating his statements) that in an advanced umpire clinic, he was told 6.3.B (removes one hand from the ball and returns the ball to both hands) only applied if the ball was actually and completely placed inside the glove a second time, that despite the hands obviously touching together several times on most pitches, the other "touches" didn't count (in the violation commonly named "double-touch").

I may have missed that clinic. Am I missing something here?
I find that, well, let's say "questionable". Hand and glove coming together only counts the first time, but not the next two or three times unless the ball/hand is completely submerged into the glove?

Think I'll wait for the clarification to come out before I address this to anyone else.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 18
Not being too critical????

Technically, the pitcher touched twice but, has she gained any advantage, especially at game speed, just say'n?
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringtownHawk View Post
Technically, the pitcher touched twice but, has she gained any advantage, especially at game speed, just say'n?
Where in the rule book does it say anything about only if gaining advantage? You enforce the rules as written otherwise you are picking and choosing what you personally wish to enforce.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 22, 2012, 01:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Charlevoix, MI
Posts: 50
MHSAA (Michigan) would not say it is illegal. It has been sent to the fed rules committee I believe. ASA district UIC says definitely illegal. She has changed to a legal motion that should work for FED and ASA.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 23, 2012, 06:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 297
Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
It would do you a great service to find a specific rule reference for what you believe this to violate.
6.2 says the pitch starts when the hands are separated once they've been placed together

and I believe 6.3.D says "must not make two revolutions..."
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 23, 2012, 07:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto View Post
6.2 says the pitch starts when the hands are separated once they've been placed together

and I believe 6.3.D says "must not make two revolutions..."
But the pitcher can pass the hip twice and make less than two revolutions. I believe the point is that the number of times the ball passes the hip is irrelevant to FP rules.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:01am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 286
I believe the language comes from RS 40.E. This pitcher is coming forward past the hip three times yet she isn't making two full revolutions.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 23, 2012, 12:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
I believe the language comes from RS 40.E. This pitcher is coming forward past the hip three times yet she isn't making two full revolutions.
And, if she waved her arms back and forth 8 times BEFORE bring her hands together, that could be 8 more times past the hip, without ANY revolutions yet.

My point is, there is no rule that addresses "past the hip" That is why I suggested finding a rule that applied to exactly THAT language. You would lose a protest based on misapplication of the rule because you used language that isn't in the rule; even if the pitch motion IS illegal, you have an obligation to reference rulebook terminology, since misapplication is protestable, even if your judgment isn't.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 25, 2012, 08:29am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
I think 95% of the good pitchers I've seen (maybe more) pass the hip exactly 3 times (back, forward, forward) while making their completely legal pitch that includes approx 1 1/3 or 1 1/2 revolutions (i.e. less than 2).
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 25, 2012, 08:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
I think 95% of the good pitchers I've seen (maybe more) pass the hip exactly 3 times (back, forward, forward) while making their completely legal pitch that includes approx 1 1/3 or 1 1/2 revolutions (i.e. less than 2).
ASA has, to the best of my knowledge, always allowed the dropping of the arm to the side when separating as of no importance. However, that is not what happened in the video offered.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pitch - Illegal or No Pitch? Duke Softball 13 Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:17am
When does an leegal pitch BECOME and illegal pitch. Illini_Ref Baseball 4 Fri Apr 23, 2004 02:06pm
Legal Pitch vs. Illegal Pitch ? Deion Softball 15 Mon Jun 30, 2003 04:24pm
illegal ball... illegal pitch? [email protected] Baseball 5 Thu Apr 17, 2003 06:57pm
Hit by pitch along with Illegal pitch Del-Blue Softball 10 Sun Mar 09, 2003 09:49pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1