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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 01:52pm
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Question

I'm a little confused on the ASA Rule governing a legal pitch. For starters I don't have a rule book so I came here to try and get some answers.

I've read a few posts on the topic, and seems every reference to the subject refers to Rule 6.

The instance in question is, At the local assn. league tournament this past weekend. There was alot of confusion on the ruling of a certain pitcher in the 12-Under championship game. The league rules state that play will be governed by ASA rules.

Senerio:

Pitcher starts with both feet on the rubber..
After winding up, the pitcher leaps forward pushing off
the rubber. plants the first foot, continues the wind-up
plants the push-off foot next to the other and delivers
the ball appx. 3 feer in from of the rubber.

The Complaint the Opposing Coaches had was:

She isn't dragging the toe off the rubber, and gaining
an advantage on the batter by releasing the ball well
after the push-off foot had landed.

This is my first year in 10-Under where the girls actually
pitch the ball, and they aren't that powerful at that age
to jump off the rubber like that. We were waiting for our game to start by watching the 12-Under title game.

Anyway the umpire said it was a legal pitch, and the coach went balistic and got tossed. He sat in the bleachers the rest of the game with us, and continued to complain behind the umpire. Which eventually got him a ticket outside the
ballpark with a security escort.

Can anyone post what the rule actually says, as it was obvious no-one there had an answer.

Thanks in advance....

Deion
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:38pm
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As you describe it, it sounds illegal.

Here are the rules that apply (all are ASA):

RULE 1 - THE DEFINITIONS

CROW HOP.
(Fast Pitch Only)A crow hop is defined as the act of a pitcher who steps, hops, or drags off the front of the pitcher's plate, replants the pivot foot, establishing a second impetus (or starting point), pushes off from the newly established starting point and completes the delivery.

LEAPING. (Fast Pitch Only) An act by the pitcher which causes the pitcher to be airborne on the initial move and push from the pitcher's plate.

RULE 6 - PITCHING REGULATIONS (FAST PITCH)

Section 3. LEGAL DELIVERY.

G. In the act of delivering the ball, the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. The step must be forward and toward the batter within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. It is not a step if the pitcher slides the pivot foot across the pitcher's plate toward the batter, or if the pivot foot turns or slides in order to push off the pitcher's plate, provided contact is maintained with the plate. Raising the foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act.

H. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal. This includes a "crow hop" as defined under Rule 1.

I. Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.


From your description, it sound like she was both leaping and crow hopping. Both are illegal. It doesn't even sound subtle, so I have no explanation as to why the umpire wouldn't call it.
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deion
I'm a little confused on the ASA Rule governing a legal pitch. For starters I don't have a rule book so I came here to try and get some answers.

I've read a few posts on the topic, and seems every reference to the subject refers to Rule 6.

The instance in question is, At the local assn. league tournament this past weekend. There was alot of confusion on the ruling of a certain pitcher in the 12-Under championship game. The league rules state that play will be governed by ASA rules.

Senerio:

Pitcher starts with both feet on the rubber..
After winding up, the pitcher leaps forward pushing off
the rubber. plants the first foot, continues the wind-up
plants the push-off foot next to the other and delivers
the ball appx. 3 feer in from of the rubber.

The Complaint the Opposing Coaches had was:

She isn't dragging the toe off the rubber, and gaining
an advantage on the batter by releasing the ball well
after the push-off foot had landed.

This is my first year in 10-Under where the girls actually
pitch the ball, and they aren't that powerful at that age
to jump off the rubber like that. We were waiting for our game to start by watching the 12-Under title game.

Anyway the umpire said it was a legal pitch, and the coach went balistic and got tossed. He sat in the bleachers the rest of the game with us, and continued to complain behind the umpire. Which eventually got him a ticket outside the
ballpark with a security escort.

Can anyone post what the rule actually says, as it was obvious no-one there had an answer.

Thanks in advance....

Deion
The pitcher is allowed to drag her pivot foot away from the pitcher's plate and is legal as long as she doesn't replant and push-off again.

I'm sort of having a hard time envisioning the pitcher's feet coming to a complete stop prior to releasing the ball, but I guess it is possible.

I'll agree with Tom that leaping is a possible call, but there was no mention of pushing off a second time which is required under ASA's definition of a Crow Hop.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Jun 25th, 2003 at 02:47 PM]
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:51pm
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This sounds like leaping, though I admit I am having a hard time envisioning it. So, concur.
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:57pm
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At which point must the ball be out of the pitchers hand.

Is it (A): Before the first step is planted.?
or is it (B): During the pivot foot drag.?
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:
Originally posted by Deion
plants the push-off foot next to the other and delivers
the ball appx. 3 feer in from of the rubber.
but there was no mention of pushing off a second time which is required under ASA's definition of a Crow Hop.
After rereading the original, I guess I was envisioning stuff that wasn't said. When Deion stated the part I quoted above, I was envisioning a second push at that point in order to "deliver the ball" - but you're right, he didn't say that; she could have just completed her windmill motion without the second push.
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 03:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deion
At which point must the ball be out of the pitchers hand.

Is it (A): Before the first step is planted.?
or is it (B): During the pivot foot drag.?
When ASA says "simultaneous with the release of the ball" they mean simultaneous with the delivery motion; they don't actually mean simultaneously with the ball leaving the hand.

The ball leaving the hand is usually nearly simultaneous with the front foot landing and while the pivot foot is dragging.
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 03:08pm
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Tom,

You are correct, she was at the end of her "Windmill" with both feet planted appx. 3 feet in from of the pitchers plate. She didn't deliver the ball during the initial step, or the toe drag. (Which she never dragged her toe at any point in the delivery.)
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 09:11pm
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I vote "leap".

Sounds like the pivot foot did not push a second time after catching up to the foot she landed on. Had she pushed again off the pivot foot, then I would vote crow hop. I definitely agree with the others that it is not easy to determine what a step "simultaneous with the release of the ball" is.

Sequence (from your description; assume right-handed pitcher):

1) Pushes off rubber with pivot foot (right foot).
2) Both feet in air, left foot ahead of right foot.
3) Left foot lands and stops.
4) Right foot catches up to left foot, landing and stopping next to it.

(ball is released sometime at or between #s 3 & 4)

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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 09:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobbrix

Sequence (from your description; assume right-handed pitcher):

1) Pushes off rubber with pivot foot (right foot).
2) Both feet in air, left foot ahead of right foot.
3) Left foot lands and stops.
4) Right foot catches up to left foot, landing and stopping next to it.

(ball is released sometime at or between #s 3 & 4)

Sorry Deion, but I've got to think there might have been something that you have missed. The way you explained it and as bobbrix summarized above, it seems it would be a definite leap. I'm wondering if the umpire's opinion was that the left foot was on the ground before the right foot come off the ground.

But then again, perhaps the umpire was not very experienced. Letting a coach sit in the stands and continue to run his mouth after he has been ejected does not show good judgement either.
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Old Wed Jun 25, 2003, 10:21pm
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Deion wrote:

"Anyway the umpire said it was a legal pitch, and the coach went balistic and got tossed. He sat in the bleachers the rest of the game with us, and continued to complain behind the umpire. Which eventually got him a ticket outside the
ballpark with a security escort."


That coach should have been "outa sight - outa mind" and
certainly not sitting in bleachers where he could continue
to verbalize his opinion since he had already attempted that.

JMO

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Old Thu Jun 26, 2003, 08:01am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobbrix
I vote "leap".

Sounds like the pivot foot did not push a second time after catching up to the foot she landed on. Had she pushed again off the pivot foot, then I would vote crow hop. I definitely agree with the others that it is not easy to determine what a step "simultaneous with the release of the ball" is.

Sequence (from your description; assume right-handed pitcher):

1) Pushes off rubber with pivot foot (right foot).
2) Both feet in air, left foot ahead of right foot.
3) Left foot lands and stops.
4) Right foot catches up to left foot, landing and stopping next to it.

(ball is released sometime at or between #s 3 & 4)

The ball was released after setup 4. when the right foot is firmly planted on the ground. (both feet planted). That was the ironic part. I'd never seen that before and aparently the PU hadn't either, and didn't know what to do therefore let it go.
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Old Fri Jun 27, 2003, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deion
Quote:
Originally posted by bobbrix
I vote "leap".

Sounds like the pivot foot did not push a second time after catching up to the foot she landed on. Had she pushed again off the pivot foot, then I would vote crow hop. I definitely agree with the others that it is not easy to determine what a step "simultaneous with the release of the ball" is.

Sequence (from your description; assume right-handed pitcher):

1) Pushes off rubber with pivot foot (right foot).
2) Both feet in air, left foot ahead of right foot.
3) Left foot lands and stops.
4) Right foot catches up to left foot, landing and stopping next to it.

(ball is released sometime at or between #s 3 & 4)

The ball was released after setup 4. when the right foot is firmly planted on the ground. (both feet planted). That was the ironic part. I'd never seen that before and aparently the PU hadn't either, and didn't know what to do therefore let it go.

Your reply got me to thinking about something else...

You only mentioned a PU, was there another umpire on this game?

If only a single umpire, it is very difficult to determine a leap or crow hop from behind the plate. What is clearly an illegal pitch from a side view can can appear to be perfectly legal when seen from behind the plate.

Your situation, as with most illegal pitches, is a HTBT to see it and even then, to see it from the right position on the field.
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Old Mon Jun 30, 2003, 02:29pm
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Yes there was as second umpire, and he agreed with the upset coach. He did say it was an illegal pitch, Because she didn't release the ball until after both feet were planted back on the ground and tried to call it without success ( Plate Umpire Over-ride.) I guess that is what fueled the fire between Coach / PU. The PU kept telling people, she doesn't have to drag her foot off the rubber.

Anyway, the way we seen it, the pitcher leaping out / planting both feet / then releasing the ball, had quite an advantage over the other team. final score was around 23 - 4.

What was funny after the game, the Asst. Coach for the team that lost, said he was going to protest the game to the league president. And guess who the league president is? You got it. The Plate Umpire.... Go figure.
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Old Mon Jun 30, 2003, 03:13pm
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If both feet are in the air at the same time after the pitch starts and before release, that sounds like a leap.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OVERRIDE BY ANOTHER UMPIRE, PLATE OR OTHERWISE!, except those duties specifically assigned to the umpire-in-chief in Rule 10.
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